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  1. #31
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Why do the objectors to organised religion not object to organised law or organised economy or organised government?
    For the same reason that most people oppose theocracy.

    Organized law, economy, and government are concerned with matter and societal structure. They follow a common suite of adaptability and practicality, where is organized religion is generally regressive and impractical / void of reason. Maybe I'm just pitting liberal government against conservative religion. Rest assured that religion and government are dissimilar, and thankfully so... Unless you know something that I don't.

  2. #32
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    Rest assured that religion and government are dissimilar, and thankfully so... Unless you know something that I don't.
    Yeah, namely that all theories and forms of government are based upon a certain religious understanding and presumptions.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    For the same reason that most people oppose theocracy.

    Organized law, economy, and government are concerned with matter and societal structure. They follow a common suite of adaptability and practicality, where is organized religion is generally regressive and impractical / void of reason. Maybe I'm just pitting liberal government against conservative religion. Rest assured that religion and government are dissimilar, and thankfully so... Unless you know something that I don't.
    Yeah theocracy is to organised religion what tyranny or dictatorship is to democracy.

    Organised religin has been adaptable and practical if its been anything, otherwise it would not have endured at all, its consistency has allowed it to avoid many of the fads and frenzies which have threatened and in some instances voided government and law. Nazism, Communism, Capitalism? Not organised religions doing.

    That is a pitting of the liberal good in government and secular law against the reactionary bad as organised religion, paper tigers and straw men.

  4. #34
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yeah, namely that all theories and forms of government are based upon a certain religious understanding and presumptions.
    Really?? Democracy, Socialism, and Communism were all based off of religious understanding and presumptions? Well, there's Democracy - rule of the people. Of course, it's easy to see how popular sovereignty could be influenced by divine inheritance of some sort. However, divine authority, whether it be by the people or the ruler, doesn't necessarily have to be indited by organized religion. You've made the distinction, I see. It's an important distinction because Deism has never been used to persecute a minority, while Christianity and Islam have.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yeah, namely that all theories and forms of government are based upon a certain religious understanding and presumptions.
    That's right, democratic centralism in leninism is similar to some of the pre-reformation church hierarchism which Erasmus and Moore were campaigning against before Luther and Calvin decided complete splintering and schism were the way to go.

    Democracy was practiced among dissenters, quakers, meeting houses and congregationalists long before it became a political idea, William of Ockham proposed ideas for the democratisation of the Church which paralleled those of council communists and the left opposition in the USSR and elsewhere.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    Really?? Democracy, Socialism, and Communism were all based off of religious understanding and presumptions? Well, there's Democracy - rule of the people. Of course, it's easy to see how popular sovereignty could be influenced by divine inheritance of some sort. However, divine authority, whether it be by the people or the ruler, doesn't necessarily have to be indited by organized religion. You've made the distinction, I see. It's an important distinction because Deism has never been used to persecute a minority, while Christianity and Islam have.
    Any faith wedded to temporal power an athority is likely to be used to persecute a minority, Deism included, the cult of reason during the French revolution desecrated churches, killed or brutalised priests and believers.

    Fundamentally the notional equality at the heart of all those credos is a derivative of Christian belief, the idea of individual sovereignty and hence popular sovereignty and universal sufferage owes much to the debates during the reformation about individual conscience and faith versus works and fidelity to tradition and papal authority.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    Well, if we created a new thread within the context of a group, couldn't the thread be private instead of public? A private prayer request thread would seem to make more sense.



    Lark, you're off-topic. (But as a matter of consistency, I am against big government and economic planning, in addition to rigid church hierarchy. I also think arbitration may be the most efficient way to resolve disputes at the level of civil law, but not criminal law. If you want to continue on this line of thought, please start another thread or PM me.)
    Didnt see this so sorry for the posts I made afterward, my point was about organised versus unorganised religion as much as other institutions.

    I dont really get this idea of unorganised religion, what is it? Spontaneous religion? Is it about spirituality versus religion or the idea that animating spirit or a personal relationship with Christ or God is somehow sacrificed in favour of codified, structured religion?

    I dont tend to see there as being a dichotomy there, although the best accounts deling with this are written by Maslow, I think it was his book about peak experiences, there is a need to strike a balance, there needs to be some structure or tradition to permit the transmission of knowledge across generations, on the other hand it shouldnt become more important or fail to facilitate the sort of important personal revelations of the "founders" or "first".

  8. #38
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yeah, namely that all theories and forms of government are based upon a certain religious understanding and presumptions.
    All there were was religious understanding and presumption, they dominated most everywhere.

    Having Democracy grow out of that is like a rose growing from concrete. It might take a while, but every now and then it will.

  9. #39
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Any faith wedded to temporal power an athority is likely to be used to persecute a minority, Deism included, the cult of reason during the French revolution desecrated churches, killed or brutalised priests and believers.
    All faiths are wedded to temporal power as long as those who practice them occupy a temporal plane of existence. Both faith and governmental ideologies are bound to be used as tools of brutality and prejudice as long as there are zealots who <attempt to> adhere to them, regardless of ideological intent. This is why is important to observe a faith/ideology that is not rooted in brutality by the document(s) that preserve it. Last I checked, the Bible is a pretty graphic and primitive document.

    Practitioners can chant "love one another" until the rapture comes, but that doesn't change the fact that the "messiah" threatened to kill innocent children by the sins of their parents in Rev. 2:22. Abiding by such a tradition contradicts any notion of individual conscience.

  10. #40
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    It's an important distinction because Deism has never been used to persecute a minority, while Christianity and Islam have.
    You could say Deism has been used by a fanatical minority to persecute the majority. Think of the Jacobins during the Reign of Terror.

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