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Blind faith

Mole

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I'm sure a quick google search will disprove this, as it's pretty done with everything else you've asserted about your homeland. But frankly I'm too tired at the moment to bother.

I remember vividly when our brave Prime Minister, John Howard, announced the ban on guns to a large, open air, public meeting.

Our Secret Service were afraid that members of your reptilian American National Rifle Association might try to assassinate him. So they advised him to wear a bullet proof vest as he announced the ban on guns.

Our Prime Minister was reluctant to wear a bullet proof vest because it is not the kind of thing an Australian Prime Minister does. But discretion being the better part of valour he was persuaded to wear the bullet proof vest as he made the announcement.

And I remember the vest was stuffed under his suit.

He made the announcement to universal Australian acclaim and the hatred of the American National Rifle Association.

We speak Shakespearean English, we reject your gun culture, we prosper in the new Elizabethan Age and we practise liberal democracy.
 

KDude

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I am not a gun owner, but the NRA is a domestic lobbying group. Not a training ground for anti-Australian "assassins". D-O-M-E-S-T-I-C. I can probably agree with your ideals about guns, but it's sad that I still have to distance myself from you... You hurt a cause by using complete nonsense to support your arguments. Not even the Fortean Times would write that.
 

The Outsider

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God is a necessary being, he's the unmoved mover or first cause of the universe. Santa Clause isn't.

If you are able to accept that God is an unmoved mover, you could just apply the same to the universe and cut God out of it.
 

Totenkindly

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What is utterly fascinating is that no archeologist in Israel believes the Exodus occurred.

And I hardly need point out that the Exodus forms the foundation of Judaism, and Judaism is the foundation of both Christianity and Islam.

Also I understand that no double bind test has been applied to MBTI for seventy years.

So the question still remains - when the facts changed for the Exodus and MBTI, I changed my mind, what will you do?

You should be commended; many people of faith who I know don't really care to change anything they believe.

But the question still remains: Did I ever say I believed the Exodus as specifically described in the OT occurred? I'm quite aware of what many of the Jewish archaeologists believe in regards to the Exodus.

PS. This counsel is willing to concede that the plaintiff disapproves of the MBTI and how he perceives it has been misused over the course of its 70 year life... if the plaintiff is willing to stop bringing it up in the majority of his posts regardless of the topic at hand.

What is fascinating is the rise of the atheists Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens and Dan Dennet.

I particularly like Daniel Dennett.

That being said, *IF* someone stated that god was santa clause, then yes, it'd be a poor analogy. That's just not whot was said is all =3

I particularly do not believe in Santa Claus.

;)

Actually I'm canadian, we use bows and arrows because guns are too expencive =3

I thought you used hockey sticks! :alttongue:
 

Katsuni

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I thought you used hockey sticks! :alttongue:

I used to think that too, until the 2010 olympics. I'm relatively sure that we have no clue how to use hockey sticks any longer. Unless fighting the russians.
 

Totenkindly

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I used to think that too, until the 2010 olympics. I'm relatively sure that we have no clue how to use hockey sticks any longer. Unless fighting the russians.

Aw.. come on... the US team worked SO hard for that victory!
(And chances are you will trounce us in the finals anyhoo. :) )

yeah, the Russians really phoned in that last performance, didn't they? Ouch.
 

Katsuni

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I haven't been paying much attention to the olympics this year admittedly; no cable tv and I don't read the news. Have a few people in class that are interested in hockey and one who plays alot of it though so... hard not to follow along.

From everything I've heard though... I'm actually kind of glad I'm not watching, it sounds unpleasant.
 

peterk

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Katsuni says,

"It doesn't matter if they're right. If they can't prove they're right, then they're wrong. No matter how right they may be".
"In short, if you're right for the wrong reasons, you're still wrong".


These are extreme black or white statements. Being right is being right. How you get there does'nt matter. It can be by BLIND FAITH. Some scientists have recieved the noble prize because they were right for the wrong reasons. In the end it only matters that you are right not how you got there.

Isn't all faith blind?
 

Katsuni

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Katsuni says,

"It doesn't matter if they're right. If they can't prove they're right, then they're wrong. No matter how right they may be".
"In short, if you're right for the wrong reasons, you're still wrong".


These are extreme black or white statements. Being right is being right. How you get there does'nt matter. It can be by BLIND FAITH. Some scientists have recieved the noble prize because they were right for the wrong reasons. In the end it only matters that you are right not how you got there.

Isn't all faith blind?

Faith is akin to a guess; a blind guess is not the same as an educated guess. Yeu don't have to barge into the door headfirst to see if there's fire in the next room, yeu can check for smoke around the edges, and touch the doorknob first.

As for being 'right for the wrong reasons'... being "right" is a black and white statement. There is no true 100% right or wrong; only degrees of accuracy. To claim that being right is right is not whot I'm getting at though, I don't mean it in a sense of accidental discovery of a formula or such, but rather on a more subjective level.

For example, given a moral choice, there may be an intended "right" answer, but more important than the answer given, is how yeu arrived at that answer. Choosing to help someone because it benefited yeu isn't really "right", just as refusing to help someone because it would harm them even if they don't realize it is actually "right".

I'm just of the firm belief that yeu should understand yeur beliefs, or values, not just adhere to them without comprehension.

I figure, if there's a god, and yeu do the judgment day thingie where yeu're put on trial or whotever, that yeu should be able to explain WHY yeu believed whot yeu did. "Because I was told to" is not a very good explanation, neither is "I was scared of going to hell". Chances are, even if yeu picked the "right" religion, yeu're still not going to win anyone over just by choosing right via blind luck. Rather, I believe that, even if yeu picked the wrong answer, if yeu came to the conclusion by means of something that made sense with the information yeu were given, yeu'd be shown leniency.

Such is true in most cases, even legally for example. If yeu committed something that's technically a crime, but yeu have a very good reason for doing so, yeu'll generally be either let go or receive a minimum sentence. Unfortunately, if yeu did something right, but for malicious intent, yeu usually still get away with it in this current system. It's fine to do something horribly wrong, as long as noone gets hurt it seems... but then we look back at some people's records and see they were picked up for drunk driving THREE TIMES in the same month... and were released each time with their liscence... and then someone dies because of it.

In any case, the point is that yeu should understand why yeu believe whot yeu do. If yeu really don't comprehend why yeu hold a certain stance, then yeu're not capable of changing that stance based on new information, nor are yeu able to defend yeur position.
 

swordpath

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“Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.” - Richard Dawkins
 

Night

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“Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.” - Richard Dawkins

This is a good quote.

I like Richard Dawkins. Much of what he offers has value.
 
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I find Dawkins to be a poor spokesman for the cause of atheism due to his pathological hatred of believers. Letting him speak for atheists is like letting Fred Phelps speak for believers.
 

Night

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I find Dawkins to be a poor spokesman for the cause of atheism due to his pathological hatred of believers. Letting him speak for atheists is like letting Fred Phelps speak for believers.

:D

I think you may be overstating your premise - especially in your comparison. I don't think he 'hates' believers; I think he simply finds them painfully dinosauric in their perspectives, to the extent that their ideologies stagnate social platform - particularly for women and homosexuals.
 

peterk

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Katsuni

Faith is akin to a hope, not to a guess. Choosing to help someone because it helps oneself is still the right thing to do. We all have a subconscious where most of our psychic activity takes place. Nobody can truely know the reasons why he does something. He can make rationalizations but he can never know the truth of it. Therfore you are always right if it turns out to be right!
 

Katsuni

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Katsuni

Faith is akin to a hope, not to a guess. Choosing to help someone because it helps oneself is still the right thing to do. We all have a subconscious where most of our psychic activity takes place. Nobody can truely know the reasons why he does something. He can make rationalizations but he can never know the truth of it. Therfore you are always right if it turns out to be right!

Unfortunately faith can also lead to horrible atrocities under the blind hope that yeu're right. I'd rather have a little common sense tied into it.

Now the point that yeu may never know the reasons for why yeu do something, is however, an interesting point at that. Generally speaking, it'll always come back to a self serving purpose of some kind or another; if it didn't, we'd die out as a species, we're built to be greedy or self centered in one way or another, however... there is the capacity to extend the "self" to others by proxy in some situations, which is usually where the difference between "good" and "evil" comes from.

Not always, of course, as good and evil are variable terms, rather than absolutes. But for the most part, being kind to someone other than yeurself is usually deemed to be a nice thing to do. Unless yeu're in a heavily racist area and help someone of the 'wrong' nationality, then BAM it's evil. There's a few other sad cases such as that.

The biggest problem with being 'right', is that it's still a subjective term for the most part. In terms of math? Sure, there's a "right" answer, though in that case it literally does mean if yeu came to the 'right' answer the wrong way, then it really doesn't work. In other situations, the "right" to do something, doing the "right" thing, or human "rights", and even "righteous" if we're going to go that far, are all subjective.

As such, arriving at the correct destination, according to someone else's subjective view, really doesn't matter all that much if yeu got there via an abhorred method. Case in point: hitlar did the "right" thing by trying to pull his country out of a massive death spiral. He succeeded, and was right in doing so. Except... he went about it in the wrong way, by using others as scapegoats to generate morale which was missing, and this led to some rather horrible acts we'd mostly like to avoid thinking about. But even that... the reason for why he did things the wrong way was because he had the wrong reasons for doing whot he did; when it was just to save his people it was fine; when it changed to doing it to be better than everyone else, that's when things turned the wrong way.

If yeu have a destination in mind, make sure yeu have the right motives, or yeu'll generally take the wrong path to reach it.

After all, life's a journey, not a destination. There's many destinations along the way, but once yeu reach one, yeu just find another, but yeu never cease the journey, so therefore a destination is merely a place to rest or a direction to go, but the path taken is far more important in most cases. That or the path not taken but then we get into some weird existential stuff =3
 

Mycroft

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I find Dawkins to be a poor spokesman for the cause of atheism due to his pathological hatred of believers. Letting him speak for atheists is like letting Fred Phelps speak for believers.

Yes, if two people believe different things with equal conviction, clearly they're both wrong.

This particular fallacy seems to carry the greatest currency with America's current youth generation.

Meanwhile their parents prefer the argument from incredulity.
 

matmos

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Yes, if two people believe different things with equal conviction, clearly they're both wrong.

This particular fallacy seems to carry the greatest currency with America's current youth generation.

Meanwhile their parents prefer the argument from incredulity.

Agreed. Strongly.
 

KDude

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I think they're just saying that Dawkins comes off like an asshole. :D

But... I guess, given the type of religious people he has in mind, there needs to be someone like that. Not that they'd ever listen to him..
 

peterk

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Katsuni,

You're confounding "right" with good or moral and they are not always the same. Hitler did some "right" things to help his economy and some of them were not good or necessary things. But it was all very transitory and he turned out to be Dead wrong.
 
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