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Thread: Blind faith

  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    ...Now, and perhaps this is the predominant issue I have with the Bible, how does one reconcile the inherent accuracy in such a recollection? As we lack independent sources to confirm credibility, we have to rely on Mark's accounting of what happened.

    Well, what if Mark's wrong? Or, what if he engaged in hyperbole? What if he mistakenly ommited aspects of what happened? After all, he was like you and me - prone to human error and oversight.
    This is handled differently by different factions within the faith, influenced by literalism and personal approach. Some factions construct elaborate proofs as to why it makes the most sense to accept the text as-is, while others will credit flexibility to the text in the face of what it perceives as legitimate ambiguity.

    Obviously the approach taken results in what moral codes are perceived in the text and how they are applied socially and personally. The ramifications are great.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    This is handled differently by different factions within the faith, influenced by literalism and personal approach. Some factions construct elaborate proofs as to why it makes the most sense to accept the text as-is, while others will credit flexibility to the text in the face of what it perceives as legitimate ambiguity.

    Obviously the approach taken results in what moral codes are perceived in the text and how they are applied socially and personally. The ramifications are great.
    Precisely.

    How do we know which factions appropriately interpret scripture and which are simply using it as a vehicle to further their individual ambitions - often as they apply to influencing popular social themes - like who we can marry, what food we can eat, what we must give up in recognition of our faith, etc.

    And, to that end, how can we be certain the Bible is to interpreted at all? What if it is meant to be a literal representation of how we must behave, should we ever hope to gain heavenly access?

    We don't have a script.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    We don't have a script.
    And if we had a script, we'd just argue about whether it was literal or figurative.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Right.

    And, as many of its central concerns appear to deal with how man should behave during life, I feel as though I must conclude that most (perhaps all?) religious ideology is man-made, offered to influence existence in the here and now, in hopes of maximizing authority at the expense of the vulnerable and faithful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I agree that this is likely the case. Many positive aspects of human behavior (likewise, if we're being fair, many aspects of negative - even malicious conduct) can be siphoned and applied to contemporary context.

    Yet, we don't necessarily need religion to tell us what we ought to do and what we ought not to do. Civilization can tell us that. So can culture. And why select a monotheistic religion as the centerpiece for our social mores? Judaism has some wonderful tenets; so does Buddhism.

    Each relies on their own version of historical account. It just so happens that our birthright has displayed Christianity, front and center.

    So, you see my predicament.
    Yes, but if a person lacks faith in Human kind, they also lack faith in society as a whole and dont believe they can turn to it for guidance, but they need to turn to something to believe. This inturn is what leads to them forcefully push these things on others because their lack of faith in society which is. They dont believe that civilization can tell us what we ought to do because of the lost faith in it.

    Do you know how many catch 22 things this world faces. How many vicious loops we are in that are all co-dependent on each other. This is where "fake it till you make it" needs to be applied and where group counceling and the strength of loved ones really shines. This is a huge benefit I see from the church. A support group, but that support group pushes people to need support. AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #26
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Yes, but if a person lacks faith in Human kind, they also lack faith in society as a whole and dont believe they can turn to it for guidance, but they need to turn to something to believe. This inturn is what leads to them forcefully push these things on others because their lack of faith in society which is. They dont believe that civilization can tell us what we ought to do because of the lost faith in it.
    Sorry - I don't follow. When you mean a person "lacks faith in human kind", are you referring to religious atheists? That is to say, one who does not agree with the mentality that a supernatural entity cares for us, and will judge our fate in the afterlife according to our decisions made while alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Do you know how many catch 22 things this world faces. How many vicious loops we are in that are all co-dependent on each other. This is where "fake it till you make it" needs to be applied and where group counceling and the strength of loved ones really shines. This is a huge benefit I see from the church. A support group, but that support group pushes people to need support. AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
    Life is hard. Like you said, there are a lot of chicken-egg scenarios as it applies to human conduct.

    Yet, before the 'popular three' religions, humans managed to survived for something like 75,000 years. How much do the main monotheistic religions dictate our ultimate success as a species?

    I agree that people must cooperate for the greater good of our future. How that's individually relayed is probably relative to culture. I'm just not sure where religion fits in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Yet, before the 'popular three' religions, humans managed to survived for almost 75,000 years. How much do the main monotheistic religions dictate our ultimate success as a species?
    Here is a weird thing: I've found that people tend to be good to others regardless of their faith... if they want to be good to others. Faith just tends to be the particular way the goodness is expressed.

    And if people want to be mean, they find some excuse in their faith to justify their actions.

    In addition, sometimes doctrines seem to get more in the way of people doing the good things they want to do because they think they're not allowed.

    This was shocking to me because I expected a different conclusion.

    I guess this ties into "[leap of] faith" in adhering to particular doctrines... because how is one to know that one is believing something just because one wants to believe something to be true? There is a step of faith, but obviously the faith is palatable and desired even if painful and scary.

    So a lot of faith seems to be personally driven. We just live out ideologies that already mesh with who we are or who we think we should be but say we are adhering to things outside of us.

    I just don't know if that is true or not.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That sounds more like a stipulation on how to most productively engage (and yes, I agree with you, it's good to shy away from negative casting when possible), rather than resolving the actual conflict in content.
    The conflict cannot be resolved through mere discussion. All we can do is talk about how the discussion is brought up. To resolve the conflict is to change people's beliefs which is not so easily done.

    I still find the question intriguing, as Night sums it up again: Is faith in lieu of evidence preferable to withholding judgment and why or why not? You and I both think well... yet you seem to adhere more strongly to your belief despite a gap in evidence, whereas for me I felt I had more integrity to intellectually not assert something is true when that gap exists. What makes the difference? What causes the divergence?
    Faith to withhold judgement?
    This would probably be how it works.
    I believe in God. God told us to do the good and avoid the bad. We do as God tells us because it is his word and so the judgement we make is more preferable.
    This is usually preferable to those who believe in God. Why do they follow these rules? Because they supposedly don't want to go to hell.

    Using evidence for judgment is a different. To those who believe in God, evidence is fine as long as it doesn't go against their beliefs in which it usually doesn't. But when it does they either just leave it alone or speculate onto why it would be bad. And their are countless reasons as to why something could be bad regardless of the evidence we found of it so they just leave it.

    To go in any deeper would be to start to talk about the existence of God.

  9. #29
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Here is a weird thing: I've found that people tend to be good to others regardless of their faith... if they want to be good to others. Faith just tends to be the particular way the goodness is expressed.

    And if people want to be mean, they find some excuse in their faith to justify their actions.

    In addition, sometimes doctrines seem to get more in the way of people doing the good things they want to do because they think they're not allowed.

    This was shocking to me because I expected a different conclusion.
    Most of this thread, after the first page, got going into more of where I kind of expected this would go, but this observation is rather interesting... and now that I've heard it, probably true for the most part.

    I'll have to think on this one a fair bit =3




    I'll cover more of whot I meant to talk about later, would love to now but put it off too late, need to go to bed and dont' have time for lengthy posts at the moment sadly. Tomorrow!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Not necessarily aimed at you, but why is faith a good thing?

    Why is definitive conclusion without sufficient evidence a positive concept?
    What makes you think that even constitutes faith to begin with? It's quite known throughout the Christian tradition(minus fundamentalism) that faith is a conviction made with adequate evidence to support it, or is the mere beginning of a wider understanding of the evidence.

    Faith basically means trust. So I guess one can ask why is trust so important, or such a positive concept?

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