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  1. #51
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Did someone else point out that "I know nothing" is a perceiver's philosophy? To refuse to know allows you to extend the time spent with collecting information and eventually if belatedly judgment can be comfortably made. Judgment necessarily cuts of perception, and isn't very P.

    And I'm okay with the idea that yeu know nothing. Wacka Wacka.
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  2. #52
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Did someone else point out that "I know nothing" is a perceiver's philosophy? To refuse to know allows you to extend the time spent with collecting information and eventually if belatedly judgment can be comfortably made. Judgment necessarily cuts of perception, and isn't very P.

    And I'm okay with the idea that yeu know nothing. Wacka Wacka.
    I was surprised to find that I know a handful of judgers (Mostly IXTJs) who are well versed in this philosophy. Does that mean that IXTJs aren't very judgy judgers?
    5 3 9

  3. #53
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    I don't agree that we know nothing. Humans know how to do many things, this is why we have built civlizations. Humans represent living organisms reaching consciousness, while living organisms in themselves represent matter developing into life.

    Humans are in effect the matter of the universe, which has reached a level of evolution whereby it can be conscious of its own existence and understand, re-order and reshape nature itself. i.e. we act upon the natural world within the limits which it presents us with, thereby changing the limits for the next generation we are not simply slaves to "nature" or our "instincts" or whatever.

    In effect as a species we represent matter - a part of the universe (the matter which makes us predates humanity and will outlive humanity, I find that beautiful) - which is capable of understanding itself and of understanding the universe! i.e. we represent a part of the universe which is capable of understanding the universe, i.e. the potentiality for the universe to understand itself.

    At different stages of human development different "ideologies" (i.e. the understanding of a social class of its own historical interests) were necessarry for revolutions in order to lay the foundations for a new social order, which le dto progress in our knowledge and understanding. For exampl;e the British, French and American revolutions against moncarchism and feudalism, were what made possible the development of modern capitalism and liberal demcoracy, withotu which we wouldn't have had the material foundation for all the improvements in our understanding of the universe since then.

    So a blanket "we know nothing, all ideologies = human arrogance & is teh evil", is the just a generality in my opinion, and very harmful, precisely because it doesn't differentiate between different ideologies, and therefore in effect, makes an apology for obscurantist, superstitious and reactionary ideologies, by saying that progressive "ideologies" which seek to eradicate these, are just as bad.

    In effect humans have a responsibility to ensure not only our survival as a species, but the evolution of conscious life...Ken Macleod wrote in his novels about a socialist society whereby humans are surpassed as a species. We cannot do this however if we stay within the bounds of capitalism. As Rosa Luxembourg said "socialism or barbarism". A system based on competition between individuals and states, led to the development of industrialized society, but cannot lesad to anything beytond that, and will destroy itself through economic crisis (leading to periodic destruction of the means of production, exhaustion of existing energy supplies while vested interests block their replacement with superior energy supplies (like nuclear power which can underlie a transition period to diversified renewable enrgy sources), wars, genocide, etc.

    Marxism doesn't understand "everything" but neither do we "know nothing". Some "ideolgoies" are superior to others. The fundamental laws of motion of the universe which Marx and Engels proposed, Dialectical Maeterialism, have now been proven by the likes of Carl Sagan, showing that two galaxies colliding obey the same basic laws of motion, as two balls of dye colliding.

    An ideology which understands this - the permanent state of motion of all matter and therefore of all human society - is undoubtedly superior to one which does not (bourgeois empiricism/rationalism, or religion, or postmodernist subjectivism).

    Only a society based on this understanding can lay the foundations for a new civilization whereby humans truly understand our position within the universe and our possibilites and limitations as a species. As Marx said, Communism is the end of the Pre-history of humanity, and the beginning of our History.

    Whew, long post. No I don't smoke weed.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

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  4. #54
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Did someone else point out that "I know nothing" is a perceiver's philosophy? To refuse to know allows you to extend the time spent with collecting information and eventually if belatedly judgment can be comfortably made. Judgment necessarily cuts of perception, and isn't very P.

    And I'm okay with the idea that yeu know nothing. Wacka Wacka.
    I don't think MBTI is really the issue. MBTI one the whole "differences between NTJ and NTP" thing is really vague enough to explain away anything.

    For example, a J who believes "we know nothing". The MBTI sage will say "ah yes, there we have it - introverted Percieving allows him to speculate as to the true nature of reality, while he concentrates his J function of pragmatically organizing the world around him for practical gains".

    Whereas the INTP who claims we can know something will be explained away with "ah yes, there we have it, the Ti backed up by tertiary Si allow him to work out and maintain strong fundametal principles upon which his sense of morality and identity rest, while the Ne lets him then play around with regards to his own personal course of action".

    This Cognitive Functions game is fun, you can basically explain anything retrospectively without having to predict anything.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  5. #55
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I don't agree that we know nothing. Humans know how to do many things, this is why we have built civlizations. Humans represent living organisms reaching consciousness, while living organisms in themselves represent matter developing into life.

    Humans are in effect the matter of the universe, which has reached a level of evolution whereby it can be conscious of its own existence and understand, re-order and reshape nature itself. i.e. we act upon the natural world within the limits which it presents us with, thereby changing the limits for the next generation we are not simply slaves to "nature" or our "instincts" or whatever.

    At different stages of human development different "ideologies" (i.e. the understanding of a social class of its own historical interests) were necessarry for revolutions in order to lay the foundations for a new social order, which le dto progress in our knowledge and understanding. For exampl;e the British, French and American revolutions against moncarchism and feudalism, were what made possible the development of modern capitalism and liberal demcoracy, withotu which we wouldn't have had the material foundation for all the improvements in our understanding of the universe since then.

    In effect as a species we represent matter - a part of the universe (the matter which makes us predates humanity and will outlive humanity, I find that beautiful) - which is capable of understanding itself and of understanding the universe! i.e. we represent a part of the universe which is capable of understanding the universe, i.e. the potentiality for the universe to understand itself.

    So a blanket "we know nothing, all ideologies = human arrogance & is teh evil", is the just a generality in my opinion, and very harmful, precisely because it doesn't differentiate between different ideologies, and therefore in effect, makes an apology for obscurantist, superstitious and reactionary ideologies, by saying that progressive "ideologies" which seek to eradicate these, are just as bad.

    In effect humans have a responsibility to ensure not only our survival as a species, but the evolution of conscious life...Ken Macleod wrote in his novels about a socialist society whereby humans are surpassed as a species.

    We cannot do this however if we stay within the bounds of capitalism. As Rosa Luxembourg said "socialism or barbarism". A system based on competition between individuals and states, led to the development of industrialized society, but cannot lesad to anything beytond that, and will destroy itself through speculation, economic crisis (leading to periodic destruction of the means of production, exhaustion of existing energy supplies while vested interests block their replacement with superior energy supplies (like nuclear power which can underlie a transition period to diversified renewable enrgy sources), wars, genocide, etc.

    Marxism doesn't udnerstand "everything" but neither do we "know nothing". Some "ideolgoies" are superior to others. The fundamental laws of motion of the universe which Marx and Engels proposed, Dialectical Maeterialism, have now been proven by the likes of Carl Sagan, showing that two galaxies colliding obey the same basic laws of motion, as two balls of dye colliding.

    An ideology which understands this - the permanent state of motion of all matter and therefore of all human society - is undoubtedly superior to one which does not (bourgeois empiricism/rationalism, or religion, or postmodernist subjectivism).

    Only a society based on this understanding can lay the foundations for a new civilization whereby humans truly understand our position within the universe and our possibilites and limitations as a species. As Marx said, Communism is the end of the Pre-history of humanity, and the beginning of our History.

    Whew, long post. No I don't smoke weed.
    I'm confused. Evolution is largely an exclusionary, competitive drive/force/what have you. How does communism [which I tend to associate with a more collective, collaborative force] ensure the evolution of conscious life if it doesn't promote a competition?

    I've never read Marx, so my definition might be wrong.



  6. #56
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    There is both the drive for competitive as well as cooperative drives within/amongst evolutionary processes, just sayin'.

    People tend to forget all the cooperation, granted, selfish, or self-serving, cooperation that goes down in the evolutionary process.

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  7. #57
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I'm confused. Evolution is largely an exclusionary, competitive drive/force/what have you. How does communism [which I tend to associate with a more collective, collaborative force] ensure the evolution of conscious life if it doesn't promote a competition?

    I've never read Marx, so my definition might be wrong.
    Well it would ensure that we don't wipe each other out or drive ourselves back to the stone age through war and crisis, which I believe is the only possible route for humanity if we don't replace capitalism.

    On earth humans are the only living organism with consciousness, so its reasonable to assume that a more intelligent species would develop out of humanity, menaing that humans would need to survive for this to happen.

    Communism would mean the rational and demcoratic common management of the economy -i.e. the material basis of a civilization - and therefore to massive advances in science and technology. I have always understood it as the resolution of war between people - which grew out of material scarcity, something which no longer exists (poverty is because of misallocation not lack of productive capacity) - in order to allow us as a species to concentrate on expanding mentally/physically outwards into the universe, and reaching our full potential as a species.

    Marxism is not a religion. Marx himself said that Marxism will die and be forgotten once capitalism has died and been forgotten. He never intended to set out a blue print for all the future, he just dealt with the contradictions in front of him which were holding back humanity - private property and state boundaries - and set out a blue print to overthrow these in order to begin a new stage of civilization.

    If another species begins to evolve out of that, which is more intelligent than humans and able to take the project of understanding/rationally organizing the universe to a higher level, then so be it.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #58
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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  9. #59
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    On earth humans are the only living organism with consciousness
    I kinda hope this is not true... it would be so cool if someone cracked some code in the dolphin signals and found out that they are conscious and three times as intelligent as humans. Then we would have to have Stephen Hawking as a spokesman and even then he would have to talk to the adolescent dolphins as the grown-ups would be yawning...

  10. #60
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I kinda hope this is not true... it would be so cool if someone cracked some code in the dolphin signals and found out that they are conscious and three times as intelligent as humans. Then we would have to have Stephen Hawking as a spokesman and even then he would have to talk to the adolescent dolphins as the grown-ups would be yawning...
    I'd be surprised if their brains haven't already been studied and tested to discount this possibility.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

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