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  1. #51
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    MBTI is ugly because it reifies.

    This may not be so important except it is being done by USA business in a society that commodifies everything.

    And so to turn a person into a commodity it is first necessary to reify them.

    And if you live inside the commodity society, it is invisible to you and MBTI will seem to be intuitively true.

    Reification has a very bad history, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was signed to address reification.

    Of course the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was signed to stop the reification of people in order to kill them - as it is much easier to kill a thing than a person.

    However MBTI reifies people, not to kill them, but to sell them as units of production.

    In other words, commodification and MBTI treats persons as means to an end, namely profit.

    Whereas I believe each person is an end in themselves.
    This is very interesting. So, is this the heart of your anti-MBTI stance?

    So you're suggesting that US corporations and the US Military are behind this in order to make people more effective workers and to increase profits? In and of itself, this may not be so horrible but given the externalities caused by powerful US corporations and the US military, this effects the rest of the world. Am I close on this?

    A couple potentially relevant links to this argument (I think)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(Marxism)
    Theology Today - Vol 49, No.3 - October 1992 - EDITORIAL - Myers-Briggs and Other Modern Astrologies

    Edit: And perhaps you may be suggesting something related to the corrosive impact of Western (US) culture on the rest of the world, effected through American media, which combined with these other factors negatively impacts other societies and individuals (like let's say Australia).

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    This is very interesting. So, is this the heart of your anti-MBTI stance?

    So you're suggesting that US corporations and the US Military are behind this in order to make people more effective workers and to increase profits? In and of itself, this may not be so horrible but given the externalities caused by powerful US corporations and the US military, this effects the rest of the world. Am I close on this?

    A couple potentially relevant links to this argument (I think)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(Marxism)
    Theology Today - Vol 49, No.3 - October 1992 - EDITORIAL - Myers-Briggs and Other Modern Astrologies
    Ahh... Interesting. Thank you for the links.

  3. #53
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Actually, I support those comments.
    If not for one man at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration blowing the whistle,
    the drug Vioxx would probably still be on the market giving people heart attacks.

    One man made a difference. It is true.

    After he blew the whistle, he was indeed bullied by idiots who work at the FDA.
    They tried their damndest to smear his reputation.
    It was one hell of a story here in the U.S. years ago.

    ...and then there was Mark Whitacre.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #54
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ...and then there was Mark Whitacre.
    It doesn't change the fact that one man can make a difference.
    Living in fear of the boogie man is not the answer.

  5. #55
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    It doesn't change the fact that one man can make a difference.
    Living in fear of the boogie man is not the answer.
    ...what's the boogie man here again?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #56
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    This is very interesting. So, is this the heart of your anti-MBTI stance?
    I am in favour of personality tests that are valid and reliable and are subject to double blind testing and administered by an independent professional..

    Unfortunately MBTI is invalid and unreliable and is not subject to double blind testing nor is it administered by an independent professional.

    Ring the Psychology Department of any reputable University and they will tell you the same.

    So the interesting question arises - MBTI has been used, not by Universities, but by the USA military and USA business, for seventy years. So what are they using it for?

    And I only mention the USA because I don't think Oz military or business use MBTI. And if I found out they were using MBTI, I would publicly lampoon them.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And I only mention the USA because I don't think Oz military or business use MBTI. And if I found out they were using MBTI, I would publicly lampoon them.
    Sure you would Victor.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I am in favour of personality tests that are valid and reliable and are subject to double blind testing.

    Unfortunately MBTI is invalid and unreliable and is not subject to double blind testing.

    Ring the Psychology Department of any reputable University and they will tell you the same.

    So the interesting question arises - MBTI has been used, not by Universities, but by the USA military and USA business, for seventy years. So what are they using it for?

    And I only mention the USA because I don't think Oz military or business use MBTI. And if I found out they were using MBTI, I would publicly lampoon them.
    These people disagree. I wonder if you contacted them, if they would inform you of the Australian businesses that use MBTI?

    Myers Briggs Type Indicators (MBTI) is the among the most widely used profiling tools in Australian business.
    Our take on MBTI | ergo consulting

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    These people disagree. I wonder if you contacted them, if they would inform you of the Australian businesses that use MBTI?
    See....what did I say? Just like Victor always like to rant about pedophilia elsewhere, but is rather silent about it in his own country. Speaking of which:
    Why is child abuse an accepted norm in Australia? - On Line Opinion - 22/10/2008

  10. #60
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I am in favour of personality tests that are valid and reliable and are subject to double blind testing and administered by an independent professional..

    Unfortunately MBTI is invalid and unreliable and is not subject to double blind testing nor is it administered by an independent professional.

    Ring the Psychology Department of any reputable University and they will tell you the same.

    So the interesting question arises - MBTI has been used, not by Universities, but by the USA military and USA business, for seventy years. So what are they using it for?

    And I only mention the USA because I don't think Oz military or business use MBTI. And if I found out they were using MBTI, I would publicly lampoon them.
    I understand your points.

    I can't speak to the military. However, the thing is, I just don't see widespread or pervasive use of MBTI in business. I personally have an interest in it but I don't know anyone else that does IRL. You'll see the rare assessment and workshop (often not MBTI by the way). My experience is that it is a one-off designed for people to understand each other a little better, tolerate the differences a little more and get along. The results are shortly forgotten except that people realize there are reasons others think or act differently than them. Outside of this one thing, it is by no means or manner whatsoever pervasive in business in the US - in my experience.

    Another interesting link on reification that I found.
    http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~vburris/reification.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    See....what did I say? Just like Victor always like to rant about pedophilia elsewhere, but is rather silent about it in his own country. Speaking of which:
    Why is child abuse an accepted norm in Australia? - On Line Opinion - 22/10/2008


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