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  1. #31
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    There is a man named Bruce Kumar Frantzis, very famous in internal chinese martial arts circles, who spent like 10-15 years living in Asia training with various masters [including Aikido's Ueshiba iirc]. I was at one of his training seminars and he talked about how the chinese had gunpowder for a long time but didn't want to weaponize it, because any wimp can pull a trigger and then didn't want to mass-institutionalize death. Two guys going at it with fists or swords, that takes skills and lots of training time. There are only so many of those kinda people around.
    That's the difference between the East's philosophy and the Wests philosophy. Where in the West they want efficiency in everything they do. Bigger, better, faster, stronger, and richer. There wasn't much in the government that liked philosophical ideas. Whereas in the East, it was noble to live to some ideal above all others.

    I noticed the difference in opinion about martial arts a few years ago when a classmate said Asian martial arts is weak and dumb. My opinion was that Asian martial arts wasn't quite about beating the shit out of the other guy as fast as possible like Western martial arts. It seemed to be another kind of artform for them, whereas the West invented (Fact check please) MMA. Taking the best moves out of many different forms of martial combat just to beat the other guy.

    Western-developed martial arts also have the same mindset. Sambo (SP?) from Russia, Pankration from Greece, and Krav Maga from Israel, were developed as an efficient combat technique to give soldiers an edge in combat. These were developed in the context of larger battles. Eastern martial arts seem to focus more on personal control/harmony rather than government control of an area. It wasn't made to expand, rather to perfect the Self-Philosophy.

    My friend, who has practiced Kendo for about six years says martial arts can be a sport or a cultural form depending on how the person practicing it thinks about it. Sport is based in competition, if you are practicing something to be better than someone else, it is a sport. Rather, if you are practicing something just for the sake of being better at it, then it isn't quite a sport. I share the opinion, but instead of grouping it into one or the other, I will just say that martial arts is a discipline.

    I think teaching a child martial arts, especially defensive ones like Aikido, is a good way of teaching the child discipline without the use of 'rules and rods' that fit better into Victor's idea. If one practices something, they have a self-sustained discipline, but if someone forces someone to act a certain way, that discipline disappears when the external force is gone. Not in all cases, anyone who knows someone who has gone through military training knows that the training affects them for a long time, if not the rest of their life.

    But you can see the external discipline not working in many children. If they think they an get away with something, they will because it gives them a sense of power. A power over the rules. This power gives them a sense of freedom. If the child is taught a discipline that empowers them without breaking rules (be them written or unwritten) it creates a stronger individual. I suppose this is where Victor got his idea where the Authority likes martial arts because it keeps the Citizens in line. Sure, but if there are enough Citizens willing to rebel, they will have the skill to do so.

    It all depends on the person, I wish my parents let me practice karate or some other martial art, but at the time they were afraid I would use it negatively. They had the right to be concerned, I had a short fuse back then.
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

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    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

  2. #32
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    There is a man named Bruce Kumar Frantzis, very famous in internal chinese martial arts circles, who spent like 10-15 years living in Asia training with various masters [including Aikido's Ueshiba iirc]. I was at one of his training seminars and he talked about how the chinese had gunpowder for a long time but didn't want to weaponize it, because any wimp can pull a trigger and then didn't want to mass-institutionalize death. Two guys going at it with fists or swords, that takes skills and lots of training time. There are only so many of those kinda people around.
    Absolutely, they invented fireworks instead!
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  3. #33
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    That's the difference between the East's philosophy and the Wests philosophy. Where in the West they want efficiency in everything they do. Bigger, better, faster, stronger, and richer. There wasn't much in the government that liked philosophical ideas. Whereas in the East, it was noble to live to some ideal above all others.

    Agreed.

    I noticed the difference in opinion about martial arts a few years ago when a classmate said Asian martial arts is weak and dumb

    What an idiot that guy was.

    It wasn't made to expand, rather to perfect the Self-Philosophy.

    No, originally many were developed for and used in battle, infact ju jitsu was invented by the samurai for close combat on the battlefield, judo comes from ju jitsu and there are now many other martial arts that are decendant or incorporate parts of it. However many were also lovingly refferred to as gentle art forms, the clues are in the names. But i do agree in part.

    My friend, who has practiced Kendo for about six years says martial arts can be a sport or a cultural form depending on how the person practicing it thinks about it. Sport is based in competition, if you are practicing something to be better than someone else, it is a sport. Rather, if you are practicing something just for the sake of being better at it, then it isn't quite a sport. I share the opinion, but instead of grouping it into one or the other, I will just say that martial arts is a discipline.

    Kendo also has it's origins in the samurai, although the samurai has all but vansihed kendo is still practised but to my knowledge it is not considered a sport as it is sword combat but i could be wrong.

    I think teaching a child martial arts, especially defensive ones like Aikido, is a good way of teaching the child discipline without the use of 'rules and rods' that fit better into Victor's idea. If one practices something, they have a self-sustained discipline, but if someone forces someone to act a certain way, that discipline disappears when the external force is gone. Not in all cases, anyone who knows someone who has gone through military training knows that the training affects them for a long time, if not the rest of their life.
    It also teaches self worth, self preservation & respect amoungst many other things. I should also add that this is the case only if taught in the right way.

    I suppose this is where Victor got his idea where the Authority likes martial arts because it keeps the Citizens in line. Sure, but if there are enough Citizens willing to rebel, they will have the skill to do so.

    I have no idea where Victor gets his ideas, they seem insane.

    It all depends on the person, I wish my parents let me practice karate or some other martial art, but at the time they were afraid I would use it negatively. They had the right to be concerned, I had a short fuse back then.


    It's never too late, find the right martial art for you then find the right teacher. You can start from any young age and it's not discriminate, you can also start at 90.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  4. #34
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    It seemed to be another kind of artform for them, whereas the West invented (Fact check please) MMA.
    Actually, MMA started in Japan. There's always been an aspect of martial arts viewed as sport in Asia before that as well, what with Sumo and Muay Thai competitions, but MMA started as an idea to simply match practitioners of different styles. Besides Japan, it became popular in Brazil as well (Brazil has the most Japanese citizens outside Japan after all). Later on, UFC emerged in the West.

  5. #35
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post

    My friend, who has practiced Kendo for about six years says martial arts can be a sport or a cultural form depending on how the person practicing it thinks about it. Sport is based in competition, if you are practicing something to be better than someone else, it is a sport. Rather, if you are practicing something just for the sake of being better at it, then it isn't quite a sport. I share the opinion, but instead of grouping it into one or the other, I will just say that martial arts is a discipline.


    This is interesting, i just found this. It is the purpose of Kendo issued by the All Japan Kendo Federation...

    To mold the mind and body.
    To cultivate a vigorous spirit,
    And through correct and rigid training,
    To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo.
    To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor.
    To associate with others with sincerity.
    And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.

    Thus will one be able:
    To love ones country and society;
    To contribute to the development of culture;
    And to promote peace and prosperity among all people

    I like this purpose very much!
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  6. #36
    . Blank's Avatar
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    All right, the initial LOL factor has gone away. Will someone edit the thread title so it actually says "martial" arts, instead of "marital" arts?
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
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  7. #37
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    That's the difference between the East's philosophy and the Wests philosophy. Where in the West they want efficiency in everything they do. Bigger, better, faster, stronger, and richer. There wasn't much in the government that liked philosophical ideas. Whereas in the East, it was noble to live to some ideal above all others.
    Eastern governments were often as much about efficiency as any Western government. We can take a look at the Imperial Chinese court for example, where you had bureaucrats taking records of when the Emperor would have sex with his numerous wives and cocumbines and how long it took to reach orgasm.

    My opinion was that Asian martial arts wasn't quite about beating the shit out of the other guy as fast as possible like Western martial arts. It seemed to be another kind of artform for them, whereas the West invented (Fact check please) MMA. Taking the best moves out of many different forms of martial combat just to beat the other guy.
    Asian martial arts were orginally about beating the crap out of the other guy. It was only later during periods of relative stability and peace did the more artful aspects developed. This occured in China after the Warring States period(and the Three Kingdoms period as well I presume) and the Togkagawa regime in Japan.

    And the notion that martial arts = personal development is not absent in the West, it was closely related to the concepts of chivalry.

    I suppose this is where Victor got his idea where the Authority likes martial arts because it keeps the Citizens in line. Sure, but if there are enough Citizens willing to rebel, they will have the skill to do so.
    Several martial arts were originally developed so as to help the common people fight off oppressive authorities. Karate was developed to help Okinawian peasants fight off their overlords. Tae Kwan do to help Koreans fight off the Japanese occupiers. And Capoeira to help Brazilian slaves fight their masters.

  8. #38
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Damn, Victor deleted his messaged. If anyone was wondering why I had a silly Elvis pic above, I was replying to him. Guess I'll delete my own post now.

  9. #39
    Self sustaining supernova Zoom's Avatar
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    The external follows the internal, is what seems to be a key factor for many arts. I've studied a few, for a few years, and am not a master, sifu, or sensei. But the primary difference between arts that I would consider sports and those I am willing to study is what they have developed into.

    Taekwondo - an art that normally when studied is practiced to compete in tournaments - is effective, certainly, if one is at the right range and isn't taken to the ground or close quarters. Effective, combat-focussed martial arts teach one how to fight, preferably against a variety of styles and opponents. Not many fall under that category, as the history affects what they are made into - Capoeira, for example, was a Brazilian (I believe) martial art that was made to look like a dance so the overseers wouldn't know what the slaves were doing when they practiced. As much as about style as combat, that was.

    The mind-body bent many have lends itself to an interesting situation, though, wherein if one spends hours a day training - at any physical and mentally straining activity - it normally does benefit both. Body and mind learn to focus, become honed and more adept at everyday activities.

    But as to whether arts that have turned more into sports are as effective as the ones who still train to hone the body's reflexes and muscle memory for combat, I'd honestly say not. Not outside of their specific context (i.e., tournaments), not when rules are taken away and most fights end up on the ground and also end in ten to twenty seconds. Some have also developed into such highly ritualized events that the original purpose of the ceremony is exaggerated, getting in the way of the practice. (Not all - some.)

    Many forms of meditation involve physical feats, meditating whilst doing something with the body...

    I've blocked Victor for a long time now, and am not going to comment on that except to say that it is just as ignorant to ignore one's body as it is to let the mind and spirit wither.

  10. #40
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    sorry to troll, but "marital arts" made me laugh so hard...

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