Marital Arts: Sport or Cultural Form?

[Betty Blue]

What's your opinion on this? Its clear to me that there's always been varieties of martial artistry before the Bruce Lee movies popularised Kung Fu and Karate in the west, there were waves before that but I kind of think that's one of the more recent that I can think of, but the west didnt look upon fighting or fighting artistry quite the same way.

There are many and it's hard to speculate without stereotyping. Most martial arts were formed for battle scenarios, defence and attack. The styles have varied greatly and intertwined also.
Martial arts, for a true martial artist are a way of life.
The western view, by and large, is somewhat different; various martial arts have been made into sports for competing and most people who train miss the fundamental reasoning behind it.
For my part, if i study a martial art i want to know all about it and connect with it at root level. I believe it's pointless otherwise.
It's like learning another language...you can repeat the words but it's all futile unless you understand them.

 

[avolkiteshvara]

Both.

 

[onemoretime]

Performance art.

 

[Mole]

Escape

The authoritarian personality lacks inner directiion so seeks outer direction.

Martial arts, body building and MBTI provide external direction.

Interestingly, parents, school, peers, work, religion and the military also provide external direction.

This is fine for chldren, employees, believers and recruits. But for the rest of us, external direction becomes a prison.

And the only important thing about a prison is escape.

 

[onemoretime]

The authoritarian personality lacks inner directiion so seeks outer direction.

Martial arts, body building and MBTI provide external direction.

Interestingly, parents, school, peers, work, religion and the military also provide external direction.

This is fine for chldren, employees, believers and recruits. But for the rest of us, external direction becomes a prison.

And the only important thing about a prison is escape.

So why then do you seek to externalize your perceived internal weaknesses?

 

[Mole]

So why then do you seek to externalize your perceived internal weaknesses?

I see myself as having relative internal strength.

I am happiest when following my inner self, and least happy when I must follow external direction.

However I have arranged my life so I receive little external direction. And I have become skilled at avoiding those who wish to direct me externally.

Just recently I have learnt to escape from those who wish to control me by hooking my ego. At first I found this a powerful tool of control. But having fallen for ego control here a number of times, I am learning to escape.

 

[Halla74]

Inside every martial artist, and inside every body builder, is a 98 lb weakling.

Bullshit. You're remark is baseless and derogatory. Thank you for showing your true colors. So, instead of a 98 pound weakling, what's inside you Victor? Instead of a martial artist or bodybuilder, what discipline do you follow other than touting yourself as the "Loyal Opposition?" Just curious.

Whereas free flowing conversation is more like a dance that appeals to the creative personality.

Once again you are wrong. Please define "creative" in terms specific to your statement above. Are you aware that not everyone in the world feels that conversation is creative, and that to other people movement and physical capability are creative? It's true, I swear. You can look it up on the Internet if you don't believe me.

This is fine for chldren, employees, believers and recruits. But for the rest of us, external direction becomes a prison.

Please define "us." It seems like your preference for categorizing any part of the world's population that practices some sort of sport or physical discipline as "children, employees, believers and recruits" is once again negative, while belonging to your self proclaimed group of "us" is apparently better in your opinion. Do you realize how sanctimonious that sounds? Please get over yourself. I'm sure you have some merits, but whatever they are they do not qualify you to stand in judgement over anyone else, let alone a large part of mankind. Please Victor, you really have stepped in a turd with this post.

However I have arranged my life so I receive little external direction. And I have become skilled at avoiding those who wish to direct me externally.

That's all fine and good, Victor, but it also appears to me that you think that people that are physically active are beneath you, and that the path to enlightenment is talking shit on the Internet. I've got a little fact you might want to consider.

You are a living organism. You are an animal. You need proper nutrition, physical exercise, and rest in order to remain healthy and functional. If you choose to avoid physical exertion whether in the form of martial arts, bodybuilding, dancing, volleyball, aerobics, riding a bicycle, or any other regularly executed physical endeavor, your body will become less and less functional. You will essentially be accelarating the aging (decay) process, as there will be no "external direction" (as you put it) to compel your body to retain its bone density, muscular strength, flexibility, balance, and even your cognitive functions.

Yes Victor, atheletes minds benefit from their silly antics of external direction. Isn't that amazing? The additional bloodflow caused by exercise actually results in an increase of bloodflow to the brain. Wow. That is amazing isn't it? Do you think that might help you in your efforts to be of optimal internal direction? If you exercise, Victor, you will be able to talk more shit on the Internet than ever before, and be able to do it longer than if you just sit on your ass. How about that?

So, I implore you to embrace the fact that as a living organism, you need balance in your activities, some of which must be some form of exercise, and if you don't Victor, you have only yourself to blame when you wake up one morning a weak old man, far sooner than ever would have occurred if you simply rejected your intellectual pretentiousness and accepted your humanity.

For a 98 pound weakling trapped inside a male bodybuilder's physique, I just gave you one hell of an ass chewing, didn't I?

See Victor, if you embrace some external direction, you won't lose your internal compass, I'm living proof.

All my comments above are issued with civility and respect toward the loyal opposition. I bid you good day. umpyouup:

-Halla

 

[KDude]

I see myself as having relative internal strength.

I am happiest when following my inner self, and least happy when I must follow external direction.

However I have arranged my life so I receive little external direction. And I have become skilled at avoiding those who wish to direct me externally.

Just recently I have learnt to escape from those who wish to control me by hooking my ego. At first I found this a powerful tool of control. But having fallen for ego control here a number of times, I am learning to escape.

Ok.. back from the external world.

If it makes you feel better, I don't even know where your ego is, and couldn't hook it even if I wanted to.

I'd like to ask you nicely to keep on topic somewhat. Even if I didn't create this thread -- it's a subject of interest to me and others. Your ideals and/or how you are applying them here, well meaning as they may be, seem to have little to do with the questions the OP asked.

Secondly, if you can't recognize that martial arts (and even "bodybuilding".. which I myself don't partake in much btw, but still see it's merit) are first and foremost skills achieved by internal strengths, and individual willpower, then you are speaking from ignorance. No martial artist could get anywhere from just drawing from "external authorities". I can find a thousand quotes from martial artists who cherished their private, individual expression (as opposed to bending to rules and authority), but I'll leave you with one.

“When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow - you are not understanding yourself.” - Bruce Lee

And not only did this guy above just say things.. he lived them out in his short 32 years. So have some respect, if individuality is what you truly respect.

 

[Scott N Denver]

There are many and it's hard to speculate without stereotyping. Most martial arts were formed for battle scenarios, defence and attack. The styles have varied greatly and intertwined also.
Martial arts, for a true martial artist are a way of life.
The western view, by and large, is somewhat different; various martial arts have been made into sports for competing and most people who train miss the fundamental reasoning behind it.
For my part, if i study a martial art i want to know all about it and connect with it at root level. I believe it's pointless otherwise.
It's like learning another language...you can repeat the words but it's all futile unless you understand them.

+1

 

[Scott N Denver]

The problem was, when gun powder made an appearance in the West and became entrenched. More personal forms of combat were left by the wayside. Or relegated to ceremony only. And some of it was forgotten almost completely.

OP: It can be both.

There is a man named Bruce Kumar Frantzis, very famous in internal chinese martial arts circles, who spent like 10-15 years living in Asia training with various masters [including Aikido's Ueshiba iirc]. I was at one of his training seminars and he talked about how the chinese had gunpowder for a long time but didn't want to weaponize it, because any wimp can pull a trigger and then didn't want to mass-institutionalize death. Two guys going at it with fists or swords, that takes skills and lots of training time. There are only so many of those kinda people around.

 

[Skyward]

There is a man named Bruce Kumar Frantzis, very famous in internal chinese martial arts circles, who spent like 10-15 years living in Asia training with various masters [including Aikido's Ueshiba iirc]. I was at one of his training seminars and he talked about how the chinese had gunpowder for a long time but didn't want to weaponize it, because any wimp can pull a trigger and then didn't want to mass-institutionalize death. Two guys going at it with fists or swords, that takes skills and lots of training time. There are only so many of those kinda people around.

That's the difference between the East's philosophy and the Wests philosophy. Where in the West they want efficiency in everything they do. Bigger, better, faster, stronger, and richer. There wasn't much in the government that liked philosophical ideas. Whereas in the East, it was noble to live to some ideal above all others.

I noticed the difference in opinion about martial arts a few years ago when a classmate said Asian martial arts is weak and dumb. My opinion was that Asian martial arts wasn't quite about beating the shit out of the other guy as fast as possible like Western martial arts. It seemed to be another kind of artform for them, whereas the West invented (Fact check please) MMA. Taking the best moves out of many different forms of martial combat just to beat the other guy.

Western-developed martial arts also have the same mindset. Sambo (SP?) from Russia, Pankration from Greece, and Krav Maga from Israel, were developed as an efficient combat technique to give soldiers an edge in combat. These were developed in the context of larger battles. Eastern martial arts seem to focus more on personal control/harmony rather than government control of an area. It wasn't made to expand, rather to perfect the Self-Philosophy.

My friend, who has practiced Kendo for about six years says martial arts can be a sport or a cultural form depending on how the person practicing it thinks about it. Sport is based in competition, if you are practicing something to be better than someone else, it is a sport. Rather, if you are practicing something just for the sake of being better at it, then it isn't quite a sport. I share the opinion, but instead of grouping it into one or the other, I will just say that martial arts is a discipline.

I think teaching a child martial arts, especially defensive ones like Aikido, is a good way of teaching the child discipline without the use of 'rules and rods' that fit better into Victor's idea. If one practices something, they have a self-sustained discipline, but if someone forces someone to act a certain way, that discipline disappears when the external force is gone. Not in all cases, anyone who knows someone who has gone through military training knows that the training affects them for a long time, if not the rest of their life.

But you can see the external discipline not working in many children. If they think they an get away with something, they will because it gives them a sense of power. A power over the rules. This power gives them a sense of freedom. If the child is taught a discipline that empowers them without breaking rules (be them written or unwritten) it creates a stronger individual. I suppose this is where Victor got his idea where the Authority likes martial arts because it keeps the Citizens in line. Sure, but if there are enough Citizens willing to rebel, they will have the skill to do so.

It all depends on the person, I wish my parents let me practice karate or some other martial art, but at the time they were afraid I would use it negatively. They had the right to be concerned, I had a short fuse back then.

 

[Betty Blue]

There is a man named Bruce Kumar Frantzis, very famous in internal chinese martial arts circles, who spent like 10-15 years living in Asia training with various masters [including Aikido's Ueshiba iirc]. I was at one of his training seminars and he talked about how the chinese had gunpowder for a long time but didn't want to weaponize it, because any wimp can pull a trigger and then didn't want to mass-institutionalize death. Two guys going at it with fists or swords, that takes skills and lots of training time. There are only so many of those kinda people around.

Absolutely, they invented fireworks instead!

 

[Betty Blue]

That's the difference between the East's philosophy and the Wests philosophy. Where in the West they want efficiency in everything they do. Bigger, better, faster, stronger, and richer. There wasn't much in the government that liked philosophical ideas. Whereas in the East, it was noble to live to some ideal above all others.

Agreed.

I noticed the difference in opinion about martial arts a few years ago when a classmate said Asian martial arts is weak and dumb

What an idiot that guy was.

It wasn't made to expand, rather to perfect the Self-Philosophy.

No, originally many were developed for and used in battle, infact ju jitsu was invented by the samurai for close combat on the battlefield, judo comes from ju jitsu and there are now many other martial arts that are decendant or incorporate parts of it. However many were also lovingly refferred to as gentle art forms, the clues are in the names. But i do agree in part.

My friend, who has practiced Kendo for about six years says martial arts can be a sport or a cultural form depending on how the person practicing it thinks about it. Sport is based in competition, if you are practicing something to be better than someone else, it is a sport. Rather, if you are practicing something just for the sake of being better at it, then it isn't quite a sport. I share the opinion, but instead of grouping it into one or the other, I will just say that martial arts is a discipline.

Kendo also has it's origins in the samurai, although the samurai has all but vansihed kendo is still practised but to my knowledge it is not considered a sport as it is sword combat but i could be wrong.

I think teaching a child martial arts, especially defensive ones like Aikido, is a good way of teaching the child discipline without the use of 'rules and rods' that fit better into Victor's idea. If one practices something, they have a self-sustained discipline, but if someone forces someone to act a certain way, that discipline disappears when the external force is gone. Not in all cases, anyone who knows someone who has gone through military training knows that the training affects them for a long time, if not the rest of their life.
It also teaches self worth, self preservation & respect amoungst many other things. I should also add that this is the case only if taught in the right way.

I suppose this is where Victor got his idea where the Authority likes martial arts because it keeps the Citizens in line. Sure, but if there are enough Citizens willing to rebel, they will have the skill to do so.

I have no idea where Victor gets his ideas, they seem insane.

It all depends on the person, I wish my parents let me practice karate or some other martial art, but at the time they were afraid I would use it negatively. They had the right to be concerned, I had a short fuse back then.

It's never too late, find the right martial art for you then find the right teacher. You can start from any young age and it's not discriminate, you can also start at 90.

 

[KDude]

It seemed to be another kind of artform for them, whereas the West invented (Fact check please) MMA.

Actually, MMA started in Japan. There's always been an aspect of martial arts viewed as sport in Asia before that as well, what with Sumo and Muay Thai competitions, but MMA started as an idea to simply match practitioners of different styles. Besides Japan, it became popular in Brazil as well (Brazil has the most Japanese citizens outside Japan after all). Later on, UFC emerged in the West.

 

[Betty Blue]

My friend, who has practiced Kendo for about six years says martial arts can be a sport or a cultural form depending on how the person practicing it thinks about it. Sport is based in competition, if you are practicing something to be better than someone else, it is a sport. Rather, if you are practicing something just for the sake of being better at it, then it isn't quite a sport. I share the opinion, but instead of grouping it into one or the other, I will just say that martial arts is a discipline.

This is interesting, i just found this. It is the purpose of Kendo issued by the All Japan Kendo Federation...

To mold the mind and body.
To cultivate a vigorous spirit,
And through correct and rigid training,
To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo.
To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor.
To associate with others with sincerity.
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.

Thus will one be able:
To love ones country and society;
To contribute to the development of culture;
And to promote peace and prosperity among all people

I like this purpose very much!

 

[Blank]

All right, the initial LOL factor has gone away. Will someone edit the thread title so it actually says "martial" arts, instead of "marital" arts?

 

[Sniffles]

That's the difference between the East's philosophy and the Wests philosophy. Where in the West they want efficiency in everything they do. Bigger, better, faster, stronger, and richer. There wasn't much in the government that liked philosophical ideas. Whereas in the East, it was noble to live to some ideal above all others.

Eastern governments were often as much about efficiency as any Western government. We can take a look at the Imperial Chinese court for example, where you had bureaucrats taking records of when the Emperor would have sex with his numerous wives and cocumbines and how long it took to reach orgasm.

My opinion was that Asian martial arts wasn't quite about beating the shit out of the other guy as fast as possible like Western martial arts. It seemed to be another kind of artform for them, whereas the West invented (Fact check please) MMA. Taking the best moves out of many different forms of martial combat just to beat the other guy.

Asian martial arts were orginally about beating the crap out of the other guy. It was only later during periods of relative stability and peace did the more artful aspects developed. This occured in China after the Warring States period(and the Three Kingdoms period as well I presume) and the Togkagawa regime in Japan.

And the notion that martial arts = personal development is not absent in the West, it was closely related to the concepts of chivalry.

I suppose this is where Victor got his idea where the Authority likes martial arts because it keeps the Citizens in line. Sure, but if there are enough Citizens willing to rebel, they will have the skill to do so.

Several martial arts were originally developed so as to help the common people fight off oppressive authorities. Karate was developed to help Okinawian peasants fight off their overlords. Tae Kwan do to help Koreans fight off the Japanese occupiers. And Capoeira to help Brazilian slaves fight their masters.

 

[KDude]

Damn, Victor deleted his messaged. If anyone was wondering why I had a silly Elvis pic above, I was replying to him. Guess I'll delete my own post now.

 

[Zoom]

The external follows the internal, is what seems to be a key factor for many arts. I've studied a few, for a few years, and am not a master, sifu, or sensei. But the primary difference between arts that I would consider sports and those I am willing to study is what they have developed into.

Taekwondo - an art that normally when studied is practiced to compete in tournaments - is effective, certainly, if one is at the right range and isn't taken to the ground or close quarters. Effective, combat-focussed martial arts teach one how to fight, preferably against a variety of styles and opponents. Not many fall under that category, as the history affects what they are made into - Capoeira, for example, was a Brazilian (I believe) martial art that was made to look like a dance so the overseers wouldn't know what the slaves were doing when they practiced. As much as about style as combat, that was.

The mind-body bent many have lends itself to an interesting situation, though, wherein if one spends hours a day training - at any physical and mentally straining activity - it normally does benefit both. Body and mind learn to focus, become honed and more adept at everyday activities.

But as to whether arts that have turned more into sports are as effective as the ones who still train to hone the body's reflexes and muscle memory for combat, I'd honestly say not. Not outside of their specific context (i.e., tournaments), not when rules are taken away and most fights end up on the ground and also end in ten to twenty seconds. Some have also developed into such highly ritualized events that the original purpose of the ceremony is exaggerated, getting in the way of the practice. (Not all - some.)

Many forms of meditation involve physical feats, meditating whilst doing something with the body...

I've blocked Victor for a long time now, and am not going to comment on that except to say that it is just as ignorant to ignore one's body as it is to let the mind and spirit wither.

 

[Litvyak]

sorry to troll, but "marital arts" made me laugh so hard...