User Tag List

First 234

Results 31 to 39 of 39

  1. #31
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Before I reply to this, thanks Jennifer. I was kind of all tense about this whole thing till I read this post.

    I'm still tense but not as much as before. You're a gem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think Ti people can [are not required to, but CAN] have large "faith" issues. Remember when Thomson talked about Ti people, and how the function works? The one example she gave was of baseball, and someone responding to the system as it played out ... so the ball is hit, and all the men in the field shift position as the ball travels, and the player has to decide whether to run to the next base. Ti is deriving and responding to truth in the world around oneself, and everything is being taken into account, and the Ti person is flexing to it in real-time.

    ISTPs seem to have more trouble with faith than INTPs, due to the S/N factor (S's tend to focus on only what can be shown, N's will interpolate and speculate based on what seems "reasonable" based on prior patterns... but note that even these patterns have been drawn from life experience!)

    A lot of faith is assumption. You are handed prior explanations for the world, rather than necessarily deriving them yourself. What I think I really want to say is that, for the Ti person, the power of observation and the intellect to piece the information together is the "assumed authority" --whereas in religion, the Bible (or another holy book) is the authority, or a particular leader is the authority, and so on. Most religion promotes a different ultimate authority than what the Ti naturally uses. [For an Fi person, the outer world plus their own personal values are the authority.]
    The authority thing is a major block to me. The whole idea of an exterior authority which passes rules down through intermediate's is quite foreign as an idea that I'd accept.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So you can definitely develop faith over time, but as an INTP it will be based on what you think is most reasonable, depending on your life experiences and observations. You will probably never be able to just buy into a particular book, or leader, or faith system that "predetermines the answers" until you have the personal life experience that validates that system.
    I'd just like to HELL YEAH that particular quote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    As INTJMom says, you simply have to be humble enough to accept the evidence once it arrives (wherever it takes you), rather than fighting it. There is a tendency to become calcified in past beliefs regardless of new information, and humble people do not permit themselves to do that.
    That's kind of what I'm doing by keep returning to the same question. It's kind of a "why not me" question. Why am I out of the loop?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    See? The life experience (your basis for deriving truth) did not yet support what you were being told to believe. So you still believe what you've experienced (or not experienced), rather than a predetermined doctrine.
    Exactly. The only religious person whom I've been around for a fair amount of time is Dom and I get the impression that he believes (or believed) because he felt it was right to do so. Him feeling something and me not is par for the course and so forms no real foundation for me to progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh, it's fair to ask. (And you should.)
    Now this both shocked and comforted me. My brain asks though why I should ask? Should I ask or should I just be patient and wait for the answer? Is it right to question and if so then why do the very religions which I look to with envy ask me not to ask? Surely faith is the absence of question or that faith is what happens when you deny the question itself. Isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It's just not fair to demand. Let other people decide how much they will invest in your search.
    Yes I am trying to be as polite and open as I can be. I expect to fail at some point and have been tempted to ask to have the whole thread closed so I don't get drawn in to some kind of ridiculous fight with the very people who are trying to help me. Based on your post and other's I decided that such was merely evading the question and cutting my nose off and what not. As such I will continue to try and behave and be as gracious and sensitive as I can. Here's hoping it works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That is the mystery, isn't it?

    I think that is why I call myself an agnostic theist right now. Intellectually, the impersonal proof is lacking... but I do see a common pattern of behavior and belief that I would deem healthy and good and mature, and it aligns with my idea of what God would be like. I just cannot give much lip service to standard religious authority or specific doctrine...
    Interesting answer to the problem.

    I shall not say more as it is your answer. No it does not satisfy the questions I find myself asking but that's probably because it's your solution and such things are personal. Oh nuts that sounds superior now... hope you get a different meaning when you read it as that's not what I meant. I mean it's your solution to your question and it does well to answer that.

    Damn my lack of F.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #32
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    5,349

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Yeah, I've got that part. It's the rest that I can't buy.
    I am not a believer in "Predestination" or "Election" as taught by Calvin.
    God pours out His grace on all.
    Some say thank you. Some say no thanks.

  3. #33
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I am not a believer in "Predestination" or "Election" as taught by Calvin.
    God pours out His grace on all.
    Some say thank you. Some say no thanks.
    What about those who just plain don't seem to be paying attention?
    I think that if anything I'll find myself in that category!!
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #34
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    6,047

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I was with you up until the reasonable bit. See now if God is a reasonable conclusion then why aren't advanced alien races that seeded this world long ago or some other not commonly accepted answer?
    They are both reasonable conclusions given the subjective evidence. Of course, if one concludes that humanity or even our entire planet was created by an advanced alien race, that still begs the question of whether God exists or not. ...and whether or not he created the alien race.

    I think you'll find these interesting:

    The Case Against Christianity by Michael Martin
    The Improbability of God by Michael Martin (have not read this yet)
    A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism by Ravi Zacharias
    Can Man Live Without God? by Ravi Zacharias

  5. #35
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    They are both reasonable conclusions given the subjective evidence. Of course, if one concludes that humanity or even our entire planet was created by an advanced alien race, that still begs the question of whether God exists or not. ...and whether or not he created the alien race.

    I think you'll find these interesting:

    The Case Against Christianity by Michael Martin
    The Improbability of God by Michael Martin (have not read this yet)
    A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism by Ravi Zacharias
    Can Man Live Without God? by Ravi Zacharias
    Aye carumba!! That sounds like an intellectual of Descartes level and James Brown kinda evangelism!! Tough call. You reckon the deep end is the end to start? I'll go look them up in Otakers.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #36
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    6,047

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Aye carumba!! That sounds like an intellectual of Descartes level and James Brown kinda evangelism!! Tough call. You reckon the deep end is the end to start? I'll go look them up in Otakers.
    Jump in--no one has ever learned to swim by wading!

  7. #37
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    5,349

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    What about those who just plain don't seem to be paying attention?
    I think that if anything I'll find myself in that category!!
    I don't know what to say to that. I used to be in your shoes. I know it's hard.
    Maybe this will encourage you?

    Deuteronomy 4:29 ESV But from there you will seek the LORD your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6?
    Posts
    2,191

    Default

    I don't think faith is a choice. You can't make yourself believe something that you just don't believe. You can pretend, or you can try with all of your heart to find the parts of the story that you CAN believe... but you can't just decide "hey, I think I will believe this improbable story now."
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  9. #39
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I don't think faith is a choice. You can't make yourself believe something that you just don't believe. You can pretend, or you can try with all of your heart to find the parts of the story that you CAN believe... but you can't just decide "hey, I think I will believe this improbable story now."
    I have to wonder what makes us continue to try even though we don't believe and have failed to believe even when we really tried to.

    Either we're flies and this belief stuff is like glass to us or there really is a splinter in our minds driving us mad!!
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

Similar Threads

  1. Where do you get your news?
    By Metamorphosis in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 08-16-2008, 05:42 PM
  2. [INTP] Where do you like to go on vacation?
    By arborvitae in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 05-07-2008, 02:08 PM
  3. Question: Where do you all find the time?
    By Nonpareil in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 08-18-2007, 06:37 PM
  4. Where do you want me to stick this?
    By Oberon in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 77
    Last Post: 07-25-2007, 04:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO