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  1. #11
    Senior Member Sandy's Avatar
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    Default Yes, I am in my right mind...

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    Last edited by Sandy; 11-27-2007 at 12:33 AM. Reason: I just read something on that site and wanted to add!
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  2. #12
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I kind of draw the line after "there's something up there that probably wants to smite me"- which kind of roughly translates to God! Other than that I don't beleive in the Devil, or Angels or anything else of the sort. Luck on the other hand... I totally beleive in good or bad luck! I have lucky charms and refuse to walk under ladders and throw salt over my left shoulder (when I figure out which of the two is left) and such! I don't make much sense sometimes...
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #13
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    INTJMom,
    I think I understand but I'm not sure. Humble to what? Humble in general or humble before something?

    PinkPiranha,
    Thanks. I always worry about approaching these kinds of topics as I tend to come across as snubbing religion and such where as it just doesn't make sense to me and that's all I try and illustrate. I guess that's a similar thing but it's not meant to be.

    Sandy,
    You know it really doesn't phase me, those stories you told. I was kinda thinking when reading that there had to be someone who had actually seen or heard or whatever for the stories to persist.

    Personally I'm logically open to the idea of aliens... it's just the whole deity level thing that causes me trouble. Brain goes..."how?"

    Whatever,
    I, rather strangely, though not believing in a God on the basis of it not fitting into my thinking I do believe in karma. Well karma in terms of nice things happen to nice people and such. I think it's more noting patterns and trying to put a name to it rather than just accepting that it's a pattern which just happened to occur.

    I dunno somedays science seems to explain just about everything and then the next day there's just one little loose end which seems to unravel the whole damn tapestry and I'm left wondering if there is something beyond science and knowledge which makes sense of the tapestry including the loose threads.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #14
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Further thinking after a cup of coffee...

    Validation.
    I guess that part of this inquiry is an attempt to gain validation for the way I think. By looking for some exterior thing or reasoning which makes sense of things. I guess that's not really fair to then ask those who have faith to extend some form of reasoning, some straw to grasp.

    Outside looking in.
    One thing that has occurred to me is that religion has never been a part of my life nor upbringing. Sure I've been to church with my mother, father and sister but none of them had any faith in what was going on it was more like we are here doing this because we're supposed to be. that never did work for me as I'm not the kind of person who can do stuff unless it makes sense to do so (that kinda gives a person a bad reputation as a party pooper apparently).

    Again it's not really fair to ask others to reason out their faith or religion to suit my inquisitive mind.

    However.
    This still does leave me kind of cold. Religion and faith seem to be some kind of great group hug but one that makes little sense to me past some kind of displacement theory which doesn't seem to measure up against those I know with faith. Their not exactly the kind to get duped in such a manner and yet I can see no reasoning beyond that.

    Anyhow I'll stop pestering people now. I guess this is one of those questions which will pursue me but it's hardly fair when pursued to put others in the firing line.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #15
    Junior Member Wizardgir1's Avatar
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    I am a person of faith. I believe the Bible is true. I believe there is a benevolent God who is stronger than the evil devil. I believe there are angels and demons. I believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe every human has an eternal soul. I believe ghosts are demons taking the form of a dead human. I don't believe in aliens though. Of course, I may be wrong about that.
    Well said. Nuff said. ...Me too.

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    ...Having said that, I've found some help in reading the Catholic mystics, but still, I feel as if I'm really a looney and I just don't know it yet?? I think modern society, which is supremely humanistic (regardless of all that "in God we trust" stuff), compels most people, especially the Rational and Thinker types, to believe that all religion is hokum designed to clutter their brains with arcane superstition. Then again, C. S. Lewis was hardly a crackpot, was he?
    Lewis was not a crackpot, but he was definitely someone who, once he decided a particular stance was true, used his Reason to support it as cogently as possible rather than the other way around.

    His conversion was not really inevitable (as it is for someone who starts with evidence first), it was simply a choice to believe because he felt the patterns converged most acceptably along the lines of Christianity. This is more an inductive argument than a deductive one. And then he spent the rest of his life clarifying the internal theology as well as explaining life in view of the patterns of Christianity.

    (It is still sort of funny though to see what a poster child he has become for evangelicalism, when Lewis' views on hell and the afterlife and other Christian doctrines do not necessarily mesh along conservative Christian lines...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Helen
    However, to me the difference is one of faith. Faith is not the denial or repression of doubts, but it is a centered act of the whole personality affirmation of the ultimacy of it's ultimate concern (ie, whatever is God to you) in spite of doubt. It is a risk of the whole self that requires courage...
    I like that.
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  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I guess that part of this inquiry is an attempt to gain validation for the way I think. By looking for some exterior thing or reasoning which makes sense of things. I guess that's not really fair to then ask those who have faith to extend some form of reasoning, some straw to grasp.
    I think Ti people can [are not required to, but CAN] have large "faith" issues. Remember when Thomson talked about Ti people, and how the function works? The one example she gave was of baseball, and someone responding to the system as it played out ... so the ball is hit, and all the men in the field shift position as the ball travels, and the player has to decide whether to run to the next base. Ti is deriving and responding to truth in the world around oneself, and everything is being taken into account, and the Ti person is flexing to it in real-time.

    ISTPs seem to have more trouble with faith than INTPs, due to the S/N factor (S's tend to focus on only what can be shown, N's will interpolate and speculate based on what seems "reasonable" based on prior patterns... but note that even these patterns have been drawn from life experience!)

    A lot of faith is assumption. You are handed prior explanations for the world, rather than necessarily deriving them yourself. What I think I really want to say is that, for the Ti person, the power of observation and the intellect to piece the information together is the "assumed authority" --whereas in religion, the Bible (or another holy book) is the authority, or a particular leader is the authority, and so on. Most religion promotes a different ultimate authority than what the Ti naturally uses. [For an Fi person, the outer world plus their own personal values are the authority.]

    So you can definitely develop faith over time, but as an INTP it will be based on what you think is most reasonable, depending on your life experiences and observations. You will probably never be able to just buy into a particular book, or leader, or faith system that "predetermines the answers" until you have the personal life experience that validates that system.

    As INTJMom says, you simply have to be humble enough to accept the evidence once it arrives (wherever it takes you), rather than fighting it. There is a tendency to become calcified in past beliefs regardless of new information, and humble people do not permit themselves to do that.

    One thing that has occurred to me is that religion has never been a part of my life nor upbringing. Sure I've been to church with my mother, father and sister but none of them had any faith in what was going on it was more like we are here doing this because we're supposed to be. that never did work for me as I'm not the kind of person who can do stuff unless it makes sense to do so (that kinda gives a person a bad reputation as a party pooper apparently).
    See? The life experience (your basis for deriving truth) did not yet support what you were being told to believe. So you still believe what you've experienced (or not experienced), rather than a predetermined doctrine.

    Again it's not really fair to ask others to reason out their faith or religion to suit my inquisitive mind.
    Oh, it's fair to ask. (And you should.)

    It's just not fair to demand. Let other people decide how much they will invest in your search.

    This still does leave me kind of cold. Religion and faith seem to be some kind of great group hug but one that makes little sense to me past some kind of displacement theory which doesn't seem to measure up against those I know with faith. Their not exactly the kind to get duped in such a manner and yet I can see no reasoning beyond that.
    That is the mystery, isn't it?

    I think that is why I call myself an agnostic theist right now. Intellectually, the impersonal proof is lacking... but I do see a common pattern of behavior and belief that I would deem healthy and good and mature, and it aligns with my idea of what God would be like. I just cannot give much lip service to standard religious authority or specific doctrine...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    INTJMom,
    I think I understand but I'm not sure. Humble to what? Humble in general or humble before something?...
    Well, I guess I meant humble before God. When I imagine myself actually in His presence, it's an overwhelming awesome feeling. He's Holy, and I am not, yet He is willing to forgive me.
    If I am unwilling to admit I need forgiveness, I am having a problem with being humble.

  9. #19
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Lewis was not a crackpot, but he was definitely someone who, once he decided a particular stance was true, used his Reason to support it as cogently as possible rather than the other way around.
    Seriously, who *doesn't* do that? And I'm not talking about a laboratory environment. I've personally known non-scientific people to reject religion wholesale while analytic/logic-based types locked onto a mystery. I think Lewis is a fine example of someone who stepped away from atheism into a realm of belief that defied logic and STILL managed to make some sense of it, as much sense as ANY faith can make. There are some things that cannot be attacked in a purely scientific fashion. The human soul (read: the thing that gives us "consciousness" as stated by every scientific book I've ever read on the subject) is one such mystery. It can't be measured or even located. But it's there.



    His conversion was not really inevitable (as it is for someone who starts with evidence first), it was simply a choice to believe because he felt the patterns converged most acceptably along the lines of Christianity. This is more an inductive argument than a deductive one. And then he spent the rest of his life clarifying the internal theology as well as explaining life in view of the patterns of Christianity.
    Do you ever learn or fully know anything all at once? Conversion for the Muslims is a lifetime thing, not a one time stroke of "I'm saved!" They live out their faith on a day to day basis. I think that's a marvelous idea.

    (It is still sort of funny though to see what a poster child he has become for evangelicalism, when Lewis' views on hell and the afterlife and other Christian doctrines do not necessarily mesh along conservative Christian lines...)
    I guess I wouldn't know about conservative Christianity because that's not how I came to God nor is it how I'm been compelled to live, but I can see why people would find a lot of comfort and enlightenment in what he said. He had a way of stripping all of the maudlin "believe because I told you to" stuff that I personally cannot and will not tolerate. I'd say Clive meshes pretty well actually, now that I think of it. Nobody in the Bible was perfect, as we all know. Murderers, thieves, low lifes, heretics, you name it. Nothing conservative about it.

    I will concede this point though: I don't like anything of value that gets assimilated into some big mass of "you can like this because we say this is safe".
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  10. #20
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    The best way I can describe my experience with the faith and reason dichotomy is that reason tells me it is possible that something outside of the physical universe may exist, but this cannot be proven or disproven. If it does exist, I should not assume my current paradigm of the physical universe applies to the spiritual dimension. My intuition is then willing to explore the reasonable possibilities.

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