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View Poll Results: Well, do you think it is bad/anything that isn't good?

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  • Yes, for religious reasons

    4 4.82%
  • Yes, other

    4 4.82%
  • No

    71 85.54%
  • Unsure

    4 4.82%
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  1. #31
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Well, some people think it is bad. Just bad. That was why I was asking. I figure the people who are find with it don't think it is necessarily good, just there are people who think it is downright bad and immoral.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    Well, some people think it is bad. Just bad. That was why I was asking. I figure the people who are find with it don't think it is necessarily good, just there are people who think it is downright bad and immoral.
    You need to define your terms a bit more, for instance the RC church doesnt even believe that homosexuality is a sin, although they think that homosexuals should abstain from homosexual behaviour and that that IS sinful, mind you they think that some sorts of sexual behaviour between heterosexuals is sinful, including intercourse outside of marriage, intercourse involving artificial contraception, oral sex and anal sex, some but not all of the RC authorities think that recreational sex, even if within marriage, itself is sinful.

  3. #33

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    I'm kind of curious what aspects you have in mind here? I thought homosexuality was relatively narrowly defined, really.
    People can engage in homosexual sexual acts or behaviour for a range of different reasons without it being their defacto sexual orientation.

    I'm thinking mainly of screeds of stuff I read by feminists who were "political lesbians" and the reaction which they experienced from homosexuals when they decided to formally "leave" that community, marry, settle down and have kids (without abandoning feminism). Now dont anyone ask me for the references, I wish to God I had them, they were articles in the Guardian (UK liberal broadsheet newspaper) and its weekend magazin publication/supplement. That's one example.

    I work in social services and I've as a consequence met a lot of people who because of a variety of what's pretty obvious, to me anyhow, problems and developmental deficits gravitate toward ANY apparently open and inviting community identity, including the gay scene, for some of them they meet or get involved with pretty predatory individuals, some of whom are without a doubt bordering upon peadopilia behaviour.

    First of all, you've talked about "homosexuality promoters" several times before, and I'm curious about what you mean. Promote in what sense? I've seen it promoted as a healthy if atypical option, but I don't think I've ever seen it promoted in the sense of "you should be gay" or "gay is better."
    I dont believe there is any longer neutrality on the topic of sexuality, homosexality is statistically a minority community, remove the troubled individuals who have gravitated to the scene or other sorts of people who use the scene as a flag of convenience for other sinister sexual behaviour and it is an even smaller minority.

    Yet if when contacted by someone who appears distressed, confused about their sexual identity or relationships you attribute it to anything other than insepant or emerging homosexuality you can very readily be labelled a bigot and a homophobe. Raise your kids with an expectation of heterosexual orientation, like each of their parents, and you could be considered a bigot. State that it is not within the nature of the overwhelming majority of the population, anywhere, and you'll be branded either a bigot or a homophobe.

    That's why I think a boundary has been crossed from acknowledging its existence, from acceptance, to approval to actual promotion. That's as a matter of policy and fact. Personally I've never ever met a homosexual who did not say that they believed that all people were either bisexual or homosexual and that heterosexuality was just invented for breeding, switch the categories about a bit and you'll, again, be considered a bigot or a homophobe for saying so.

    Granted, I probably don't hang out with the queer academic theorists on the weekends, so I might just be ignorant. I do have sympathy for people wanting homosexual to be relatively stigma free... people like me feel like it was the hand we were dealt, and would prefer not to see the younger LGBT generation go through the same turmoil we did over something they can't change.
    Would you wish that the torment you mention be experienced by the vast majority of maturing young adults who arent homosexual or may never have so much as met a homosexual? What about people experiencing the label of bigot or phobic when in reality they dont care? I'm not personalising this, its a hypothetical or topical question BTW

    Secondly, I agree that a victim mentality is awfully tempting for a lot of people. You can see this in all walks of life. Fundamentalists feel victimized by the world or the liberals. Gay people feel victimized by others. Muslims feel victimized. Atheists feel victimized. Just about everyone can find some reason to feel victimized on some level. And truly, I can understand why feeling like a victim is seductive. It's so easy, as a gay person, to feel horrible and responsible for the ensuing upset and condemnation. Having a period of feeling angry and hurt and justified in that is understandable. It's freeing to be able to say "yes, my family treated me shabbily" (regardless of their motivations).
    Hmm, I'm unsure that I agree with that but if its your opinion then that's grand. My reason for not thinking its a good idea or wanting to condone it is that too often those sentiments get transfered to others, including complete strangers, whom you do not have a right to expect acceptance, approval or endorsement from. That goes for any sort of rejection though, its basic emotional competence, which is different from politics, culture or norms.

    However, that view is only part of the story. None of us are entirely powerless victims, nor are we all-powerful invulnerable aggressors. We all have some of both victim and aggressor within us. I think we are much healthier with we can acknowledge our shadow selves, claim them, and channel them constructively. Otherwise, we project those darker aspects onto others, and then treat them accordingly.
    Yup, good out look on life.

    Anyway, I agree that not everyone is bisexual or homosexual. I know that I can't function as a heterosexual (Lord knows I spent enough time and energy trying), so I think it would be just as obscene to force a heterosexual to act against his or her nature. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Trust me, it's not pleasant.
    Yup again.

    However, I don't see a problem allowing people who are somewhere in the middle to act accordingly. I certainly don't see how condemning people who are gay helps anyone. I hope people wouldn't want their straight daughters marrying gay men, and don't want LGBT teens committing suicide.
    Yeah, who could disagree? Suicide or marriages based upon some sort of deceit arent good for anyone (its a different topic but I dont understand how men come out as homosexual after being married for years and fathering children. I could not physically get an erection to perform homosexual sex acts, I'm not sure if I could even under pain of death - that happened in some of the Serbian prison camps during the Bosnian war were rape was used as a weapon of war - seperate topic though).

    Equally I dont believe that someone who is distressed, confused and in crisis is at the best stage of their life to have a particularly sexual lifestyle pitched to them, they're pretty vulnerable and could be like your hypothetical gay man who gets married. I shit you not too that people will do seriously crazy things when they have attachment disorders or complex trauma from childhood.

    What do you mean here by "cultural identity?" I think on a daily basis my life is at least as boring as the average straight person's. I'm settled and living with my partner of 17 years. I'm not going out to bars every night. I don't think I walk around with a big gay chip on my shoulder, either, nor do I assume that anytime I get negative feedback it's because the other person is a homophobe.
    Its perhaps a UK phenomenon, have you heard of a UK TV show Little Britain? In it they lampoon a lot of things that people darent talk about even, things that are pretty taboo, like the disabled guy who is capable of things that are greater than most able bodied people can achieve when no one is looking. Anyway, in this show they lampoon the real "scene" individual whose sexuality pretty much defines everything about them and sees persecution at every turn.

    I don't think I demand any more recognition than a straight person would in an equivalent situation, and I do live with less (in some cases). If anything, I tend to let minor things slide just because I don't like causing upset.
    There are extremists on all sides and from the sound of it you definitely arent one but would you by the same token generalise your experiences to the entire population?

    There are people who're aggrieved enough for instance to post any amount of flames on books on Amazon with critique homosexuality as popularly portrayed simply because. They dont even want that opinion expressed.

    Generally fine with that, although, once again, I'm curious how you define "unreasonable expectations of approval." What's the line between reasonable and unreasonable? Is equivalent treatment unreasonable? Should I be fine if my brother invites me over, but explicitly disinvites my partner? Do you think homosexuals should keep the fact that they are in a relationship private? What's the line there?
    I'll be honest with you, if my brother was homosexual he'd not be invited if he had a partner with him, not to my house or I suspect my parents house, it wouldnt mean that they were any the less my brother but they know how I feel about that. However that's a personal, familial thing and everyone needs to reach their own conclusions.

    The unreasonable expectations I'm talking about is basically seeking the approval and affirmation of strangers, this isnt restricted to homosexuals though, if I heard an particular faith practitioner or member of an ethnic community expressing the same I'd have a similar issue. Already I think that state paternalism has institutionalised to an extent the expectation that more mature individuals will take responsiblity for the feelings and even behaviour of others who are less responsible, its gone far enough.

    I generally live with far less approval than my brothers do, but I'm actually really happy to be back in steady contact with half my family. It feels like a great gift since I had resigned myself to pretty much nothing. I don't feel like a victim, but I do feel like it's kind of a tragedy that both my twin brother and I feel hurt but unable to change our stances. I do understand his mindset, even though it is no longer my own.
    Sure.

    Generally agreed (although again a little curious on what you see as the harmful associated behaviors). I wish it were true that gay people were LESS likely to be pedophiles, but studies show they are merely equally likely. Ho-hum.
    In the UK there's a lot of agitation by homosexuals against the age of conscent, neither the homosexual movement itself nor anyone else has made much of a reply to it. I did hear a radio four broadcast once in which the most prominant gay rights agitator in the UK, who is not carving out a niche for himself lobby for the "sexual rights" of children, was part of a panel on the topic and had no answer at all for the child psychologists who had evidence based opinions about the links between early sexualised behaviour and childhood trauma, risk taking or self injurious behaviours. Instead he just reiterated his point, complained about oppression again.

    Now maybe this is something unique to the UK but there you go, its were I'm from and how I form my judgements.

  4. #34
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'll be honest with you, if my brother was homosexual he'd not be invited if he had a partner with him, not to my house or I suspect my parents house, it wouldnt mean that they were any the less my brother but...
    Careful, Larky. Saying that sort of stuff can get a fellow sacked from his job in social services...

    BTW. Are you secretly gay? I bet you are.

    Get outta that closet, buddy. I hear NI has a thriving gay scene. It's there. It's for you.

    Fill yer boots.

  5. #35
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    No.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  6. #36
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    as with my typical response to such topics- it's none of my business if you want to do someone of your own gender! As long as you aren't wanting to boink children, or rape anyone it's all good with me

    I really don't understand why people even CARE!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I really don't understand why people even CARE!
    I think this may be explained with Newtons 3 law of motion.

  8. #38
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepy View Post
    I think this may be explained with Newtons 3 law of motion.
    how depressing that some people behave like the balls on my Newton's Cradle!

    wow... people work themselves up way too much over issues that don't really have anything to do with them
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #39
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I actually ask one of my gay friends about his sex life. So I'm clearly not weirded out by it, I like knowing shit.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #40
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    I work in social services and I've as a consequence met a lot of people who because of a variety of what's pretty obvious, to me anyhow, problems and developmental deficits gravitate toward ANY apparently open and inviting community identity, including the gay scene, for some of them they meet or get involved with pretty predatory individuals, some of whom are without a doubt bordering upon peadopilia behaviour.
    Any kind of "scene" will give certain people the opportunity to seek refuge and act on their problems. Take the teaching profession, for instance. This is a career path which, because it puts people in contact with children, often draws pedophiles. Does this mean we should condemn teaching?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    Yet if when contacted by someone who appears distressed, confused about their sexual identity or relationships you attribute it to anything other than insepant or emerging homosexuality you can very readily be labelled a bigot and a homophobe. Raise your kids with an expectation of heterosexual orientation, like each of their parents, and you could be considered a bigot.
    Of course you're going to be called a bigot if you tell someone they're disturbed because they think they're gay. Of course you're going to be called a homophobe if you tell your children that you expect them to be straight, no ifs, ands, or buts. You have rejected another person on the basis of a feeling that would be harmless if you and other people hadn't stigmatized it. I can think of few words more suitable than the ones you mentioned yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    I'll be honest with you, if my brother was homosexual he'd not be invited if he had a partner with him, not to my house or I suspect my parents house, it wouldnt mean that they were any the less my brother but they know how I feel about that. However that's a personal, familial thing and everyone needs to reach their own conclusions.
    What would be the point of turning your brother out of your home because he's gay? Up until now, you've been painting yourself as someone who objects to homosexuality because of its social impact. Yet I assume a visit from your brother wouldn't cause a sudden upsurge in pedophilia (or whatever other strange theory you have in mind).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark
    The unreasonable expectations I'm talking about is basically seeking the approval and affirmation of strangers, this isnt restricted to homosexuals though, if I heard an particular faith practitioner or member of an ethnic community expressing the same I'd have a similar issue.
    I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a person to treat you with the same respect they show to everyone else, nor do I often see anyone, straight or otherwise, ask for special treatment. On the rare occasion someone does, that person is usually denied and nothing comes of it. If special treatment does result, in spite of the steep odds, the person to blame is the one who gave the privilege, for no matter how much you beg and plead, you can't force another human to do something for you. Moreover, the only reason someone would expect special treatment in the first place is if they've been given some already. A slave may hope to be raised up and worshiped, but he certainly doesn't expect it; only a king who has got it all his life does. So again, all society has to do in order to treat this "problem" (a strong word, I think) is treat homosexuals like everyone else . . . which, oddly enough, is exactly what most of them are asking for.
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