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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meshou View Post
    I believe in a world outside of myself. I do not believe "truth," inherent meaning, exists as anything but an interaction between an observer and the world. Therefore, I believe truth can only be subjective. There are no inherent meanings, everything is absurd.

    I also do not believe events necessarily happen in a linear, inherently sensical way. I think we tend to edit out whatever doesn't make sense, and so are not creatures very well made to be totally in touch with reality, let alone objective truth.

    Your need for objective truth is more a product of your need for the world to make sense than it is a reflection on reality. The world is absurd, and you doubly so.
    Would another way to describe the concept in your last two paragraphs is that there's always more outside our conception/perception than we can pick up, so our idea of "truth" is still always a subset smaller than the totality of all truth?

    I guess we could agree on the outside world and what it contains... but as to what those things are exactly, and how we describe them, and the value we place in them, and how we communicate about them to others -- all those things are subjective. Even in a physical/temporal sense -- because I am describing something from a certain physical and temporal location that no one else can exactly occupy (as far as 3D and time coordinates go), my viewpoint is unique compared to another's.

    Still, there are things that seem to be static in terms of "objective" truth, in a practical every-day sense. For example, there are processes that for all intents and purposes provide the same results for anyone when measured, regardless of who they are. The brick will be, for all practical purposes, the same length regardless of who measures it. And so forth. Are these just "physical properties" in your world, rather than examples of "objective" truth? (Just trying to grasp the concept.)

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I do not understand why 'inherent meaning' should be equivocated with 'truth.' In fact, I do not even know what inherent meaning is supposed to be, nevermind whether or not it exists.
    In other words, it's really a mistake to equate "[inherent] meaning" with "[objective] truth"?

    Well, I'm not sure how we could possibly discover the "inherent meaning" of things, since "meaning" is what value we personally invest in something, which could be different from person to person. Who decides what is an "inherent" meaning of something, a meaning that is always there, except perhaps on a very generalized basis? (For example, the same item might commonly have the same general "meaning" for a majority of people... but this is still a far cry from an "inherent" meaning generated by the object itself.)

    Objective truth would seem to describe properties of the object, not the value of it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Objective truth can be affected by the presenter's ethics.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  3. #23
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Objective truth can be affected by the presenter's ethics.
    No no... TRUTH can not be influenced by the presenter's ethics... only our perception of the truth can be.

  4. #24
    Senior Member meshou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I do not understand why 'inherent meaning' should be equivocated with 'truth.' In fact, I do not even know what inherent meaning is supposed to be, nevermind whether or not it exists. However, I do believe quite strongly that 'truth' does exist and that it is, and can only be, objective, i.e. that the truth is universal and applicable to all.
    By inherent meaning, I mean meaning which exists without an observer.

    This sentence seems to contradict your other comments, since here you claim that truth does exist, but question our ability to have knowledge of it.
    I have seen nothing to support its existence, and believe it doesn't exist. If it does, it certainly doesn't exist in a form something roughly the size of a large sweetpotato can adequately process

    Though for those who believe in truth, that our beliefs may or may not be in correspondence to the facts, you have provided no criticism, only a string of vague assertions and scepticism.
    Well, you have provided neither proof nor, really, any logical basis whatsoever for thinking truth exists. Only your strong feeling it does. Well, the only response to that is skepticism your feeling has much to do with reality.

    I don't have a great deal of time at the moment to gather my sources and show how I got to my conclusions, but my biases are toward existentialism, absurdism, and my personal belief that consciousness as people experience it is largely an illusion, and that people's actions are much much much more rooted in unconscious whims than in conscious thought.
    Let's do this thing.

  5. #25
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meshou View Post
    By inherent meaning, I mean meaning which exists without an observer.
    You've acknowledged that there is inherent meaning by saying that an external universe exists.

  6. #26
    Senior Member meshou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    You've acknowledged that there is inherent meaning by saying that an external universe exists.
    It's an awfully big leap to equate mere existance with meaning. It does not follow.
    Let's do this thing.

  7. #27
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    What is truth? Truth is the whole universe and everything beyond the universe. Truth is the connections between all concepts. The objective truth of anything can never be comprehended by us mere mortal... so why bother messing up your minds over what it might be? Work with subjective truths... it's good enough in my opinion.

    Is there meaning in existence... in the objective sense, we don't know... perhaps this is all just a big joke by whoever "way up there"... perhaps we are just the pieces on a board game of a little child. Or perhaps we are just random chaotic strings... energy functions... that there's no meaning to those wave forms afterall. That kind of thinking gets us nowhere. So let us look a little closer to ourselves rather than to dream of cosmic truths. What does life mean to you and I? What is your perceived purpose in life... how does that relate to mine? Then perhaps we can eventually find a pattern that works for humanity... but to extend that any further is folly.

  8. #28
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I don't know if someone can explain to me what 'subjective truth' is supposed to do that differentiates it from 'ordinary truth,' because at present, I am struggling to understand.

    The truth or falsity of a statement has nothing to do with subjectivity and objectivity. For example, statement which we are trying to evaluate may postulate the existence or conjecture the state of something which may be subjective, such as your mood or your meaning for a symbol, or may be objective, such as that the universe never contradicts itself or that the speed of light is finite.

    In this vague sense 'subjective truth' can be said to exist, in that we can make true or false statements regarding the content of peoples minds, or their subjective interpretations. However, even these such statements, if true, must be true for all, so that if it is 'subjectively true' that you feel calm as of this moment, it is true for everyone that you feel calm at this moment, even if they feel irate, upset or angry.
    I understand 'subjective truth' to be an idea or belief that cannot be proven - is not falsifiable. That I feel calm is only true for me because no one else can experience my exact calm, but only their interpretations of it. My calm can, and has been, interpreted as everything from someone else's calm, to hostility, to fear. I understand subjective truth to be that which can only be experienced and understood precisely from individual perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    If 'subjectively true' is simply another way of saying 'relative truth,' then the very notion of truth has been abandoned, the law of noncontradiction is is not enforced and from a contradiction, everything follows. That is just epistemological scepticism, to dress it up as 'relative truth' would be a misleading use of language.
    So, perhaps this idea of subjective truth (perception) is information that by its nature is unknowable except from the inside view of an individual. There is continual tension and interplay between subjective perception and objective truth. Perhaps superstition is the process of molding the objective world into subjective perception, while science is the process of molding subjective perception into the objective world?

    I look forward to further comments. Good stuff. Yum! Yum!
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #29
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    There could not be a subjective truth.

    Truth is your perception that aligns with the way the universe is on the outside.

  10. #30
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meshou View Post
    It's an awfully big leap to equate mere existance with meaning. It does not follow.
    If you say that all statements are subjective, you are not in the position to make an utterance and expect me to accept what you say. If you expect me to believe that all statements are subjective, you in effect are accepting objectivity of some kind.

    So 'all truth is subjective' is untenable.

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