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  1. #11
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meshou View Post
    Sure. But that's not a "truth," that's just a world outside your own head.

    I believe in a world outside of myself. I do not believe "truth," inherent meaning, exists as anything but an interaction between an observer and the world. Therefore, I believe truth can only be subjective. There are no inherent meanings, everything is absurd.

    I also do not believe events necessarily happen in a linear, inherently sensical way. I think we tend to edit out whatever doesn't make sense, and so are not creatures very well made to be totally in touch with reality, let alone objective truth.

    Your need for objective truth is more a product of your need for the world to make sense than it is a reflection on reality. The world is absurd, and you doubly so.

    It is true that we impose our perceptions on the world, yet it still seems to me that we share the same hallucinations. At least we see enough similarities to say that we have the same physical objects in front of us and the ideas that we discuss could easily be kept in perspective by both of us.

    What about mathematics, as Galileo said it is the language that God wrote the universe with. Perhaps it symbolizes how everything works in the universe, and there are many other ways to do this. Hence this is an example of how a code for the way the world is structured could be immanent within nature and outside of our heads. With Kant's transcendental idealism the world as we experience it is subjectively conditioned, but nonetheless the noumena, the real thing must exist objectively as that is not subjectively conditioned, we look at that and translate it into the world of phenomena.

    It may be true that we are not creatures to know the objective truth, yet again this in no way precludes it from existing as the world behaves not in accord to our preferrences but in accord to the laws of nature that do not have to agree with what we like or what we don't like.

  2. #12
    Senior Member meshou's Avatar
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    As I've said, all that means is that there is an outside world, and language to decribe it. That doesn't mean there is inherent meaning to any of it. It does exist, but it takes a pair of eyes to say any of it means something.
    Let's do this thing.

  3. #13
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meshou View Post
    As I've said, all that means is that there is an outside world, and language to decribe it. That doesn't mean there is inherent meaning to any of it. It does exist, but it takes a pair of eyes to say any of it means something.
    Would anything at all exist if every living being disappeared from the face of the earth?

  4. #14
    Senior Member outmywindow's Avatar
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    Jesus Christ I wish I had the ability to split threads here...

    *Waves to get Ivy's attention*
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  5. #15
    Senior Member meshou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Would anything at all exist if every living being disappeared from the face of the earth?
    Sure. I have maintained from the beginning an outside world exists. It simply has no inherent meaning.

    And I laugh at Outmywindow's pain. Mwa ha ha.
    Let's do this thing.

  6. #16
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    [Split to new thread as above]

  7. #17
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meshou View Post
    Sure. I have maintained from the beginning an outside world exists. It simply has no inherent meaning.

    And I laugh at Outmywindow's pain. Mwa ha ha.
    This does not preclude for truth to exist. In fact in virtue of your claim that it has no meaning, you've affirmed the supposition that truth exists.

  8. #18
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meshou View Post
    I do not believe "truth," inherent meaning, exists as anything but an interaction between an observer and the world. Therefore, I believe truth can only be subjective. There are no inherent meanings, everything is absurd.
    I do not understand why 'inherent meaning' should be equivocated with 'truth.' In fact, I do not even know what inherent meaning is supposed to be, nevermind whether or not it exists. However, I do believe quite strongly that 'truth' does exist and that it is, and can only be, objective, i.e. that the truth is universal and applicable to all.

    I also do not believe events necessarily happen in a linear, inherently sensical way. I think we tend to edit out whatever doesn't make sense, and so are not creatures very well made to be totally in touch with reality, let alone objective truth.
    This sentence seems to contradict your other comments, since here you claim that truth does exist, but question our ability to have knowledge of it. I might agree, though it is dependent on what you mean by 'knowledge.' In any case, your assertions certainly have an objective flavour, purporting to apply universally, without exception, to all. Furthermore, the linearity of events has little with whether or not we can make sense of those events, unless you are suggesting that the term 'nonlinearity' cannot be understood or made sense of?

    Your need for objective truth is more a product of your need for the world to make sense than it is a reflection on reality. The world is absurd, and you doubly so.
    If you really believe that everything is absurd, thus allowing contradiction, then you have condemned your own argument, and indeed all argument. This debate is disingenuous on your part, since you do not believe in critical argument itself, so we are left in a quagmire of conflicting, but uncomparable assertions.

    Though for those who believe in truth, that our beliefs may or may not be in correspondence to the facts, you have provided no criticism, only a string of vague assertions and scepticism.

  9. #19
    Senior Member wyrdsister's Avatar
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    I think that there is subjective human truth* and a universal truth that may or may not be available (partly) for human beings to understand.

    *A common dictionary definition of truth is "agreement with fact or reality".[1]
    Wyrd is a concept in Anglo-Saxon and Nordic culture roughly corresponding to fate. It is ancestral to Modern English weird, which has acquired a very different meaning.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyrdsister View Post
    I think that there is subjective human truth* and a universal truth that may or may not be available (partly) for human beings to understand.
    I don't know if someone can explain to me what 'subjective truth' is supposed to do that differentiates it from 'ordinary truth,' because at present, I am struggling to understand.

    The truth or falsity of a statement has nothing to do with subjectivity and objectivity. For example, statement which we are trying to evaluate may postulate the existence or conjecture the state of something which may be subjective, such as your mood or your meaning for a symbol, or may be objective, such as that the universe never contradicts itself or that the speed of light is finite.

    In this vague sense 'subjective truth' can be said to exist, in that we can make true or false statements regarding the content of peoples minds, or their subjective interpretations. However, even these such statements, if true, must be true for all, so that if it is 'subjectively true' that you feel calm as of this moment, it is true for everyone that you feel calm at this moment, even if they feel irate, upset or angry.

    If 'subjectively true' is simply another way of saying 'relative truth,' then the very notion of truth has been abandoned, the law of noncontradiction is is not enforced and from a contradiction, everything follows. That is just epistemological scepticism, to dress it up as 'relative truth' would be a misleading use of language.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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