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Deep contemplations and still needing insight!

Antimony

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Why I wrote that:

;)

Oh, I see. I can't even remember why I said that :doh:


Nothing is a someting inasmuch as it is a word, or a concept represented by a word - insofar I would agree; semantically though it is the opposite of any "something" there is.

Hm. A word and a concept which is greatly pondered by me.



That's why I think that a) the number zero is one of the greatest inventions ever made and b) negation is a really interesting phenomenon (because it lets us express at least a certain degree of nothingness).

I have often wondered: If the universe is in fact limited, what does its limit look like? Maybe a "limited universe" actually means that after the last galaxy, there simply is nothing but vacuum extending endlessly. But then again I think infinity, in its last degree, is almost as incomprehensible as nothingness.

Infinity, in a sense EVERYTHING there can be and more, is just as hard to accept as zero. Or not accept, but understand. Of course it exists. But something without limits...I guess that is what I am trying to find.

Experiencing forgiveness and grace from the burden of my mistakes is how I have faith, and my faith is how I know. Call it a moment of realization or surrender where God met me where I was at when I was confused about life and in that moment I found identity in Christ. I had repented and I had been forgiven, and only my heart knows what freedom that is like. My faith relationship allows me even further freedom and access to question God and understand why things are as they are, set within that relationship, because I've found that God wants to know me. You rightly say God will judge, as a moral God should, but that same God came to earth to forgive everyone, and for me, that act of love epitomizes what everything is all about, how much he really wants to know us. If you're going to , then I encourage you to keep an open mind and to start with the gospel of John because it's easy to read. The link may help you.

John 1 - Passage


Disclosure: I am not trying to say you are wrong, nor am I trying to really argue with you. All questions presented are just for...well, answers.


I guess it is more of an idea to me, religion is. They are ideas that allow you to (sometimes) ask questions. Like you said, you can question as to why things are. But can one not take anything and tell themselves that is why it is?

How do you know God exists? Yes, the Bible tells you he does, millions of people believe, but how do you just know? You experience forgiveness because you are told you would, or are you? Do you really feel the forgiveness, or just what it is like to be forgiven?

I don't understand how one feels the relationship.
 

King sns

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Raised strict Roman Catholic. As a kid I was a believer in the teachings, but have never been a creationist, even when I was very small and surrounded by them. Just evolution with some divine guidance, since creationism has absolutely no basis in science whatsoever. Even then I realized the evolution "with help" thing was still just a theory.

Nowadays, I'm pretty much a spiritual agnostic, not by my own choosing, it just happened by accident, when I was about 18, and thought about "the meaning of the world" for about six months which was depressing and got me no where except that "Religion is a safety guard from the truth, whatever that is." :doh: I have trouble believing in things that I can't see, and I certainly can't sit in a homily and believe an interpretation of those things that I can't see but have only heard. Though I do have great respect for most Catholic priests and find many of them to be very intelligent, and in fact less judging and strict than many of their parishioners. They are a little more outside of the box. So I'm therefore still very interested in what they have to say. I have respect for most religious leaders in general,whatever religion they may be.

Some things that have happened in my life keep me believing in something, though I'm not sure what that something is yet, and I doubt I'll ever know, unless I can break out of the box that I'm thinking in somehow. I can't help but feeling that a search for truth is always something done in vain, though I know the human brain can't help it. Most truth searching in my mind simply results in more possible outcomes and I don't believe the human brain will ever be able to fathom the truth in my lifetime.
 

King sns

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Interesting view. I honestly wasn't expecting an ISTJ to be the first to post an in depth answer.

But how do you know what is real? Is it ever possible to really know?

:doh: (On the ISTJ thing),
have we learned ANYTHING from this site people???

(I say this with a smile on my face, not to start a brawl or dehisce the thread.)


But on the other hand, agreed. It will be almost impossible to ever know.
 

Antimony

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Raised strict Roman Catholic. As a kid I was a believer in the teachings, but have never been a creationist, even when I was very small and surrounded by them. Just evolution with some divine guidance, since creationism has absolutely no basis in science whatsoever. Even then I realized the evolution "with help" thing was still just a theory.

I have always sort of just gone with believing in both Adam and Eve and also evolution, until I put two and two together and was like wait, these clash. I felt so dumb. I think I go more with evolution. There just seems to be so much evidence, it is so tangible. I have an easier time because I know it is real.

Nowadays, I'm pretty much a spiritual agnostic, not by my own choosing, it just happened by accident, when I was about 18, and thought about "the meaning of the world" for about six months which was depressing and got me no where except that "Religion is a safety guard from the truth, whatever that is." :doh: I have trouble believing in things that I can't see, and I certainly can't sit in a homily and believe an interpretation of those things that I can't see but have only heard. Though I do have great respect for most Catholic priests and find many of them to be very intelligent, and in fact less judging and strict than many of their parishioners. They are a little more outside of the box. So I'm therefore still very interested in what they have to say. I have respect for most religious leaders in general,whatever religion they may be.

You hit the nail on the head. Not only are they just stories, they are another person's interpretations. Of course I don't always dislike the religious leaders, in fact, I generally don't (there were some really annoying Baptist leaders I got into it with, though once.)

I wish my mind could fathom the truth. Maybe until then I can remain mostly with a belief that there may be something out there (whatever it is, I can name it God, be it particle or loving entity).

Now what I really want to understand is nothingness and infinity! That, and the concept of a creator, are what I want to fully understand. I don't want to accept, I want to know and be able to know why.



:doh: (On the ISTJ thing),
have we learned ANYTHING from this site people???

(I say this with a smile on my face, not to start a brawl or dehisce the thread.)


But on the other hand, agreed. It will be almost impossible to ever know.

I know what you mean, it is okay :yes:
I just was expecting some NF with the complete lowdown on such matters :D

I was pleasantly surprised with Gerbah's indepth replies.

And thank you for your's. I hate not knowing, but I suppose I must accept it.
 

Gerbah

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Now what I really want to understand is nothingness and infinity! That, and the concept of a creator, are what I want to fully understand. I don't want to accept, I want to know and be able to know why.

If you're interested in those kinds of questions, you might find what Sufism has to say interesting to think about. It's concerned with direct experience and knowledge of things like that, going beyond the boundary of the self and into knowledge of the infinite and timeless. Knowledge meaning not just information about it. It also has a very rational questioning method, so it has a rationale for why.
 

Antimony

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If you're interested in those kinds of questions, you might find what Sufism has to say interesting to think about. It's concerned with direct experience and knowledge of things like that, going beyond the boundary of the self and into knowledge of the infinite and timeless. Knowledge meaning not just information about it. It also has a very rational questioning method, so it has a rationale for why.

:yay:

Rationale!??!??!!?11

ZOMG!

I am going to go research it now. Like....NOW!

*heads off to google*

I don't know where to start. There seems to be a lot of information :doh:

I can get through this!

No. I still don't know where to look.
 

Mole

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The language of God enables us to look through God's eyes.

And if I could imagine true nothingness, I wouldn't be here. I really can't. I don't understand what nothing means.

Understanding the universe?

The language of God is mathematics.

And when we speak the language of God, we see that the equations of Quantum Mechanics make perfect sense.

And to boot, experiments show that Quantum Mechanics is a faithful reflection of the universe to ten decimal places.

However an odd thing happens and we cannot understand Quantum Mechanics.

That is because the quantum is the smallest anything can be.

And we are much, much, much larger than the quantum.

And so we intuitively understand things our size but we have no intuitive way of understanding anything the size of the quantum.

It's a bit like intuitively seeing that the Sun goes round the Earth, but knowing counter-intuitvely that the Earth goes round the Sun.

So we can see that Quantum Mechanics, the mathematics of the infinitesimally small, is counter-intuitive.

And unsurprisingly that Relativity, the mathematics of the infinitely big, is also counter-intuitive.

However we feel comfortable with things about our own size which we can understand intuitively.

So really it is a question of epistemology, or ways of seeing.

You can look through your own eyes or you can look through God's eyes. And what you see in each case is very different.
 

Antimony

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:hug:

I like you. More information! I am finding some words I am actually unfamiliar with.

*gasps*

Probably because I am not familiar with Sufism.


Basically yes. What I can understand, perceive, and interact with.

Alright, I see what you mean. I will tell you when I understand the universe :thumbup:

You can look through your own eyes or you can look through God's eyes. And what you see in each case is very different.

And how may we look through God's eyes, assuming there is such a thing?
 

Lark

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Raised strict Roman Catholic. As a kid I was a believer in the teachings, but have never been a creationist, even when I was very small and surrounded by them. Just evolution with some divine guidance, since creationism has absolutely no basis in science whatsoever. Even then I realized the evolution "with help" thing was still just a theory.

Nowadays, I'm pretty much a spiritual agnostic, not by my own choosing, it just happened by accident, when I was about 18, and thought about "the meaning of the world" for about six months which was depressing and got me no where except that "Religion is a safety guard from the truth, whatever that is." :doh: I have trouble believing in things that I can't see, and I certainly can't sit in a homily and believe an interpretation of those things that I can't see but have only heard. Though I do have great respect for most Catholic priests and find many of them to be very intelligent, and in fact less judging and strict than many of their parishioners. They are a little more outside of the box. So I'm therefore still very interested in what they have to say. I have respect for most religious leaders in general,whatever religion they may be.

Some things that have happened in my life keep me believing in something, though I'm not sure what that something is yet, and I doubt I'll ever know, unless I can break out of the box that I'm thinking in somehow. I can't help but feeling that a search for truth is always something done in vain, though I know the human brain can't help it. Most truth searching in my mind simply results in more possible outcomes and I don't believe the human brain will ever be able to fathom the truth in my lifetime.

The RC church isnt creationist though, creationism is only important to biblical literalists and believers in scripture alone tenets of belief, which is central to protestant Christianity not RC Christianity.
 

Feops

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Alright, I see what you mean. I will tell you when I understand the universe :thumbup:

Welllll.. I didn't mean to imply anything as vague and grand as somehow spontanously understanding the entire universe.

I meant that the universe as we see and experience it is quite sufficient to feel a kinship with one's surroundings. There is meaningful interaction with the real and tangible. If anything, I see association with what is claimed to be 'supernatural' to be a step away from this kinship rather than a step towards understanding a sort of higher power.
 

Nonsensical

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I'm in a transition period in my life where I don't know what I believe.

My whole life until now, I've kind of believed everything that I've been told and seen in church. I've been going to church almost my entire life. But lately, I've been questioning everything that I've been told.

I learn through personal experience and self development (dom. Ne/inf. Fi) and can then define my values and beliefs.

As of now, I'm in the grey shaded area right after childhood and just before adulthood.

So I don't really know, because my real life experiences have just began to unfold...and as they do, I'm sad to say I begin to question the things I thought I believed in.
 

Antimony

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Welllll.. I didn't mean to imply anything as vague and grand as somehow spontanously understanding the entire universe.

I meant that the universe as we see and experience it is quite sufficient to feel a kinship with one's surroundings. There is meaningful interaction with the real and tangible. If anything, I see association with what is claimed to be 'supernatural' to be a step away from this kinship rather than a step towards understanding a sort of higher power.

I know, but I thought I would tell you when I understood everything :D

I understand what you mean, though. I like the feeling of what is around me (that is, when I actually pay attention to my surroundings and all that is around me).

And do you feel like it is a step away because you can't really feel it directly, as something more than an idea?



I'm in a transition period in my life where I don't know what I believe.

My whole life until now, I've kind of believed everything that I've been told and seen in church. I've been going to church almost my entire life. But lately, I've been questioning everything that I've been told.

I learn through personal experience and self development (dom. Ne/inf. Fi) and can then define my values and beliefs.

As of now, I'm in the grey shaded area right after childhood and just before adulthood.

So I don't really know, because my real life experiences have just began to unfold...and as they do, I'm sad to say I begin to question the things I thought I believed in.

I know exactly what you mean, my friend. Hence this thread ;)
I haven't really disowned anything, rather I am trying to question it all, develop my own belief system. I think a faith is kind of hard for me. I sort of think there is a God, and then I don't. I know I certainly do not agree with many ideas presented to me in church settings, but then there are ideas I do agree with.

In any event, I hope you figure out through your own experiences and ponderings what you really do believe in. I think it is great to question, even if in the end you believe the same, or similar. It is better than following blindly.

But why does it make you sad to question?
 

Provoker

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You can only trust what is real.

Indeed, when it comes to trust what is real is to be preferred to what is not real, imaginary, or merely apparant. However, there is disagreement about what is real and how knowledge of reality is to be obtained. For John Locke, all knowledge comes from experience. Yet three problems are readily apparant: (1) The senses are known for deceiving and are thus not an absolute source of knowledge. Instead, experience as a source of knowledge is only more or less reliable, probable, but not absolute the way a priori truths are. (2) Consciousness is a source of knowledge, and is not conveyed through any sensory organ. One can, for instance, lose one's sense of sight and still be conscious. (3) Locke is assuming that all knowledge comes from experience; however Kant has demonstrated that certain things can be known priori to experience--namely, a priori truths. For example, a person need not know that if one looks through a rose-colored lens the world will appear rosy. This can be ascertained a priori.

In spite of these shortcomings, or perhaps because of them, rationalists posit that empirical knowledge is next to worthless. Rationalism is a much more reliable epistemological system. It admits no fallacies so to speak, whereas empiricists commit informal fallacies all the time as they make observations and from these induce generalized truths. For rationalists the preference is for deduction. Deductive knowledge is often constructed in the following way. Concise definitions are established that specify a range of phenomena, but only that which is essential. Out of these definitions, axioms are formed, which are self-evident truths that are universally agreeable. From these definitions and axioms propositions are formed, traced to their definitional and axiomatic sources. Propositions are then demonstrated, in some cases by illustrating that the antithesis of the proposition leads to an absurdity and thus the proposition is necessarily true. In total, with definitions, axioms, and propositions, scholars are able to deduce theorems. These theorems will have the advantage of being replicable. In other words, one should be able to follow the reasoning, which is deliberately made transparent, to arrive at the same conclusion now and forever.

Now, when the senses and reason supply you with different and conflicting pieces of knowledge, which do you rely on? Which do you trust?

You might say quite sensibly that you rely on a combination. Certainly this is similar to the idea Kant had in mind when he claimed that the senses cannot think, and the understanding does not see, and what was needed, therefore, was a synthesis of empricism and rationalism. Accordingly, one's best bet is in transcendental logic, where the sensibility is used as content for synthetic judgments a priori.

In short, what is really at stake here is the epistemological system one is using. Mysticism is not to be mistaken for an epistemological system anymore than the tooth ferry is to be taken for something that exists. The reasoning is as follows. All things in the animate and inanimate world take place according to rules. Nowhere is there to be found any irregularity. True, at certain times these rules are not known. The child, for instance, may speak in grammatically correct sentences without knowing the rules of grammar. The nonmathematically inclined person may not see a pattern when given a Fibinacci sequence, but there are rules in each. Both follow algorithms. If all things follow rules, then humans too would have to follow rules. Thought, which follows rules, is in essentials the same everywhere. It is not rue that there are different kinds of laws of thought to suit the different kinds of objects thought about. Even William James Sidis, with his alleged IQ of 300, could not think eleven-dimensionally. Sidis too was bounded by laws. Now, proper thinking is by definition logically valid thinking. If it is not logically valid, it cannot be called proper. For the linguist, the basic laws of logic are necessary for a basic level of communication to take place. For the logician, a basic condition of knowledge is truth and the criteria of truth is fourfold: (1) The principle of non-contradiction (i.e. X cannot be both X and not X). (2) The principle of identity (i.e. X=X and not Y). (3) The principle of excluded middle (i.e. X either is or is not, there is no other option). (4) Principle of sufficient reason. Given this criterion of truth, which as mentioned is a condition of knowledge, it is clear that mysticism cannot meet any such standard. Myticism is the belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience. Such a definition is dubious and cannot even meet the criterion of non-contradiction. If something is beyond perceptional and intellectual apprehension then this precludes the possibility of it being accessible to experience. In order to experience, one must perceive. We don't talk about what we did while we slept for six hours because there was nothing perceived therefore nothing interesting experienced. If, on the other hand, one dreamt then one might have something to talk about. If one slept well or bad, one might also have something to talk about, but only inasfar as the sleep informs the experience when awake because to propound an experience is to perceive and/or discuss it on an intellectual level. Mystics claim to not be binded by the rules of perception and intellectualization. It is my duty, therefore, to tell the mystic that he knows nothing for only in perception and thinking can knowledge be produced. By modus tollens if there is not perception and/or thinking, then knowledge cannot be produced. If knowledge cannot be produced, then this cannot be called an epistemic system. It follows that mysticism cannot be called an epistemic system. Thus, from the point of view of an epistemology textbook, mysticism is intellectually worthless. Therefore, in going back to the original claim,

You can only trust what is real.

I shall agree and go on to note that mysticism is not real; therefore mysticism cannot be trusted.
 

Mole

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The Dance of Mathematics

And how may we look through God's eyes, assuming there is such a thing?

We can look through God's eyes by becoming numerate.

Just as we can look through the eyes of authors by becoming literate.

Just as we can look through the eyes of the West by learning Ancient Greek.

And when you can read and write mathematics as fluently as you read and write English or Ancient Greek, you will be able to look through God's eyes.

There are many paths into mathematically numeracy. The path I followed was through the philosophy of mathematics. And the more I read, the more vistas opened up and the more curious I became. Until I became at home in a mathematical library called Hancock library. And when I visit I always check the mathematical magazines so I can read the latest news in the mathematical world.

You are literate so you can read the daily newspaper, why not become numerate so you can read the latest news in mathematics.

Mathematics makes the world go round. Mathematics is the dance of God.

Why not accept the invitation to the dance?
 

Contemptus

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my advice: don't consult a forum, if you are interested in contemplating these things... SEARCH... And continue to search
 

Antimony

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Victor: okay, I will go ahead and learn the language of God, again assuming it exists.

my advice: don't consult a forum, if you are interested in contemplating these things... SEARCH... And continue to search

Oh, I was more interested in other people's ideas. Sure, they give me ideas of my own...sort of, but I am not exactly following what they say just because they say it.
 

Mole

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Victor: okay, I will go ahead and learn the language of God, again assuming it exists.

The 'language of God' is a metaphor. And metaphors don't exist.

Rather a metaphor is a comparison of relationships. So a metaphor can no more exist than a comparison.

But most of language and mathematics consists of metaphor. So metaphor is the way we see.

A metaphor takes the structure -

As A is to B, so C is to D.

So we are comparing the relationship between A and B, to the relationship between C and D.

God said, "Let there be light", and the metaphor was born. And so were we, for so far, no computer can make a metaphor, only we can make metaphors.
 

Antimony

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So, how do you know such a God exists?
 
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