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  1. #61
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    Why I wrote that:

    Oh, I see. I can't even remember why I said that


    Nothing is a someting inasmuch as it is a word, or a concept represented by a word - insofar I would agree; semantically though it is the opposite of any "something" there is.
    Hm. A word and a concept which is greatly pondered by me.



    That's why I think that a) the number zero is one of the greatest inventions ever made and b) negation is a really interesting phenomenon (because it lets us express at least a certain degree of nothingness).

    I have often wondered: If the universe is in fact limited, what does its limit look like? Maybe a "limited universe" actually means that after the last galaxy, there simply is nothing but vacuum extending endlessly. But then again I think infinity, in its last degree, is almost as incomprehensible as nothingness.
    Infinity, in a sense EVERYTHING there can be and more, is just as hard to accept as zero. Or not accept, but understand. Of course it exists. But something without limits...I guess that is what I am trying to find.

    Quote Originally Posted by paisley1 View Post
    Experiencing forgiveness and grace from the burden of my mistakes is how I have faith, and my faith is how I know. Call it a moment of realization or surrender where God met me where I was at when I was confused about life and in that moment I found identity in Christ. I had repented and I had been forgiven, and only my heart knows what freedom that is like. My faith relationship allows me even further freedom and access to question God and understand why things are as they are, set within that relationship, because I've found that God wants to know me. You rightly say God will judge, as a moral God should, but that same God came to earth to forgive everyone, and for me, that act of love epitomizes what everything is all about, how much he really wants to know us. If you're going to , then I encourage you to keep an open mind and to start with the gospel of John because it's easy to read. The link may help you.

    John 1 - Passage

    Disclosure: I am not trying to say you are wrong, nor am I trying to really argue with you. All questions presented are just for...well, answers.


    I guess it is more of an idea to me, religion is. They are ideas that allow you to (sometimes) ask questions. Like you said, you can question as to why things are. But can one not take anything and tell themselves that is why it is?

    How do you know God exists? Yes, the Bible tells you he does, millions of people believe, but how do you just know? You experience forgiveness because you are told you would, or are you? Do you really feel the forgiveness, or just what it is like to be forgiven?

    I don't understand how one feels the relationship.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  2. #62
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Raised strict Roman Catholic. As a kid I was a believer in the teachings, but have never been a creationist, even when I was very small and surrounded by them. Just evolution with some divine guidance, since creationism has absolutely no basis in science whatsoever. Even then I realized the evolution "with help" thing was still just a theory.

    Nowadays, I'm pretty much a spiritual agnostic, not by my own choosing, it just happened by accident, when I was about 18, and thought about "the meaning of the world" for about six months which was depressing and got me no where except that "Religion is a safety guard from the truth, whatever that is." I have trouble believing in things that I can't see, and I certainly can't sit in a homily and believe an interpretation of those things that I can't see but have only heard. Though I do have great respect for most Catholic priests and find many of them to be very intelligent, and in fact less judging and strict than many of their parishioners. They are a little more outside of the box. So I'm therefore still very interested in what they have to say. I have respect for most religious leaders in general,whatever religion they may be.

    Some things that have happened in my life keep me believing in something, though I'm not sure what that something is yet, and I doubt I'll ever know, unless I can break out of the box that I'm thinking in somehow. I can't help but feeling that a search for truth is always something done in vain, though I know the human brain can't help it. Most truth searching in my mind simply results in more possible outcomes and I don't believe the human brain will ever be able to fathom the truth in my lifetime.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  3. #63
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    Interesting view. I honestly wasn't expecting an ISTJ to be the first to post an in depth answer.

    But how do you know what is real? Is it ever possible to really know?
    (On the ISTJ thing),
    have we learned ANYTHING from this site people???

    (I say this with a smile on my face, not to start a brawl or dehisce the thread.)


    But on the other hand, agreed. It will be almost impossible to ever know.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

    My Nohari
    My Johari
    by sns.

  4. #64
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Raised strict Roman Catholic. As a kid I was a believer in the teachings, but have never been a creationist, even when I was very small and surrounded by them. Just evolution with some divine guidance, since creationism has absolutely no basis in science whatsoever. Even then I realized the evolution "with help" thing was still just a theory.
    I have always sort of just gone with believing in both Adam and Eve and also evolution, until I put two and two together and was like wait, these clash. I felt so dumb. I think I go more with evolution. There just seems to be so much evidence, it is so tangible. I have an easier time because I know it is real.

    Nowadays, I'm pretty much a spiritual agnostic, not by my own choosing, it just happened by accident, when I was about 18, and thought about "the meaning of the world" for about six months which was depressing and got me no where except that "Religion is a safety guard from the truth, whatever that is." I have trouble believing in things that I can't see, and I certainly can't sit in a homily and believe an interpretation of those things that I can't see but have only heard. Though I do have great respect for most Catholic priests and find many of them to be very intelligent, and in fact less judging and strict than many of their parishioners. They are a little more outside of the box. So I'm therefore still very interested in what they have to say. I have respect for most religious leaders in general,whatever religion they may be.
    You hit the nail on the head. Not only are they just stories, they are another person's interpretations. Of course I don't always dislike the religious leaders, in fact, I generally don't (there were some really annoying Baptist leaders I got into it with, though once.)

    I wish my mind could fathom the truth. Maybe until then I can remain mostly with a belief that there may be something out there (whatever it is, I can name it God, be it particle or loving entity).

    Now what I really want to understand is nothingness and infinity! That, and the concept of a creator, are what I want to fully understand. I don't want to accept, I want to know and be able to know why.



    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    (On the ISTJ thing),
    have we learned ANYTHING from this site people???

    (I say this with a smile on my face, not to start a brawl or dehisce the thread.)


    But on the other hand, agreed. It will be almost impossible to ever know.
    I know what you mean, it is okay
    I just was expecting some NF with the complete lowdown on such matters

    I was pleasantly surprised with Gerbah's indepth replies.

    And thank you for your's. I hate not knowing, but I suppose I must accept it.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  5. #65
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    Now what I really want to understand is nothingness and infinity! That, and the concept of a creator, are what I want to fully understand. I don't want to accept, I want to know and be able to know why.
    If you're interested in those kinds of questions, you might find what Sufism has to say interesting to think about. It's concerned with direct experience and knowledge of things like that, going beyond the boundary of the self and into knowledge of the infinite and timeless. Knowledge meaning not just information about it. It also has a very rational questioning method, so it has a rationale for why.

  6. #66
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    If you're interested in those kinds of questions, you might find what Sufism has to say interesting to think about. It's concerned with direct experience and knowledge of things like that, going beyond the boundary of the self and into knowledge of the infinite and timeless. Knowledge meaning not just information about it. It also has a very rational questioning method, so it has a rationale for why.


    Rationale!??!??!!?11

    ZOMG!

    I am going to go research it now. Like....NOW!

    *heads off to google*

    I don't know where to start. There seems to be a lot of information

    I can get through this!

    No. I still don't know where to look.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  7. #67
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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  8. #68
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    Understanding the universe?
    Basically yes. What I can understand, perceive, and interact with.

  9. #69
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Thumbs down The language of God enables us to look through God's eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    And if I could imagine true nothingness, I wouldn't be here. I really can't. I don't understand what nothing means.

    Understanding the universe?
    The language of God is mathematics.

    And when we speak the language of God, we see that the equations of Quantum Mechanics make perfect sense.

    And to boot, experiments show that Quantum Mechanics is a faithful reflection of the universe to ten decimal places.

    However an odd thing happens and we cannot understand Quantum Mechanics.

    That is because the quantum is the smallest anything can be.

    And we are much, much, much larger than the quantum.

    And so we intuitively understand things our size but we have no intuitive way of understanding anything the size of the quantum.

    It's a bit like intuitively seeing that the Sun goes round the Earth, but knowing counter-intuitvely that the Earth goes round the Sun.

    So we can see that Quantum Mechanics, the mathematics of the infinitesimally small, is counter-intuitive.

    And unsurprisingly that Relativity, the mathematics of the infinitely big, is also counter-intuitive.

    However we feel comfortable with things about our own size which we can understand intuitively.

    So really it is a question of epistemology, or ways of seeing.

    You can look through your own eyes or you can look through God's eyes. And what you see in each case is very different.

  10. #70
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post


    I like you. More information! I am finding some words I am actually unfamiliar with.

    *gasps*

    Probably because I am not familiar with Sufism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    Basically yes. What I can understand, perceive, and interact with.
    Alright, I see what you mean. I will tell you when I understand the universe

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    You can look through your own eyes or you can look through God's eyes. And what you see in each case is very different.
    And how may we look through God's eyes, assuming there is such a thing?
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

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