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Thread: ORIGIN OF EVIL

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    Sadly this discussion has veered in the wrong direction. Initially the topic was the origin of evil, more specifically evaluating the account provided by the Scriptures, and finding inconsistencies, lacunes, and so forth, yet many of the comments seem to focus on the human aspect as the source of evil. Were I to reply to KIDDO and BLUEWING's comments, this would take this discussion even further away from the intended path.
    Therefore if anyone can...provide us please with a critique of the Bible account, namely 'how did Lucifer found evil'? Was there a flaw in the being Lucifer? One of the analogies we received here was with the way computers are build (see first & second page) namely that we're programmed, yet not to the extent where we're restricted to the fullest, an analogy which gives us an interesting perspective, yet I would like to further enquire and say, that that analogy still doesn't answer how did evil arrive in the picture, even if a being (divine or human) were to choose doing evil! In a loving, holy atmosphere such as heavens, (biblically speaking) how could evil even be a possible notion? If the account is not plausible, if the Christian Bible is mistaken in asserting and contradictory in affirming such an account, tell us why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LIND View Post
    Sadly this discussion has veered in the wrong direction. Initially the topic was the origin of evil, more specifically evaluating the account provided by the Scriptures, and finding inconsistencies, lacunes, and so forth, yet many of the comments seem to focus on the human aspect as the source of evil.
    Probably because it is easier to discuss. Discussing the Biblical mythology demands a detailed knowledge of archeology, translation issues, ancient culture, and other things that most people are not equipped to deal with.

    Were I to reply to KIDDO and BLUEWING's comments, this would take this discussion even further away from the intended path.
    That is one of Bluewing's spiritual gifts, you know.

    If you want a detail-intensive dialog, you might do better asking an apologetics or academic site. You might also find threads of interest on skeptic/antagonist sites like Ex-Christian.Net Forums. There you just need to filter through the understand that you're hearing all the reasons why something might NOT be true.

    Therefore if anyone can...provide us please with a critique of the Bible account, namely 'how did Lucifer found evil'? Was there a flaw in the being Lucifer? One of the analogies we received here was with the way computers are build (see first & second page) namely that we're programmed, yet not to the extent where we're restricted to the fullest, an analogy which gives us an interesting perspective, yet I would like to further enquire and say, that that analogy still doesn't answer how did evil arrive in the picture, even if a being (divine or human) were to choose doing evil! In a loving, holy atmosphere such as heavens, (biblically speaking) how could evil even be a possible notion? If the account is not plausible, if the Christian Bible is mistaken in asserting and contradictory in affirming such an account, tell us why?
    Now are you veering back to the philosophical? Any answers to these questions is going to based on speculation, because the Bible does not really provide us many details of the Satan figure. How on earth could anyone provide a conclusive case? It's all just explorations of possibility.

    That's why you haven't gotten much along these lines.

    From what I understand, much of what is accepted popularly about Lucifer comes from Milton's "Paradise Lost."

    Quote Originally Posted by LIND
    You want some biblical support? Here is some': apostle Paul asserts that we should avoid doing anything that might 'seem' as evil-sin, without specifying exactly what shouldn't we do! What does this entail, you say? Paul trusts Reason, as a quality that's been bequeathed to us humans- from above, a quality which allows us to decipher strange circumstances and walk the right path. Reason allows man to fill in the gaps for those situations in which we do not have perhaps a straight answer (since sometimes the Bible posseses an esoteric scent ), or for which we have no answer whatsoever. Once you annex Reason with the Bible as a guide, you might get further than just limiting yourself to a single source.
    I agree that most of what Paul offers is an appeal to "Reason" or even "common sense." He often worked that way, and used reason to justify the religious principles. The whole first chapter of Romans is derived from Reason (or what would seem Reasonable to the average gentile).

    Despite the argument here, I actually view things more like you suggest -- annexed Reason, with the Bible as a guide. I think it is the reason I have always had issues in a church environment, which is more like "the Bible being justified through reason."
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    LIND, it's nice to hear you liked my analogue.. thank you ! I'm not sure if I expressed myself clearly enough.

    Did you read the part that I applied the computer comparison to (spiritual) creatures before earth, too?

    Bible paints a picture where God ultimately loves people's ability to choose more than just about anything else. Granted, bible tells of some actions that might constitute coercion from some point of view (repent or die). Do you notice the difference between given a choice and that of taking total control of someone?

    My claim was the thing that defining good and evil beforehand is infinetly difficult. According to bible, this is something that the God alone is able to decide - as in the meaning of setting perfect laws. Bible also supports the idea that some creatures may learn to live somewhat along the lines of God's wishes, so that it'll be "good enough".

    So in short, God gave his creations the mind that can do evil. This does not consititute an evil act per se, because good and evil is so infinetly difficult to define, so that any restriction on someone's ability to do evil will necessarily restrict their ability to do good, as well. (as proven by computer comparison).

    Ok in really really really short version, God of the Bible just wants everyone to choose to do good rather than make it automatic.

    Could you break these points down a bit more? I am feeling like I'm writing the things third time, because I haven't received your analysis on my writings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LIND View Post
    Who created EVIL? Did God create evil? God is pure, and something fully pure can not create something impure, therefore God did not create evil. But God created Lucifer, and if Lucifer discovered evil within its heart, there must have been some kind of flaw in the construct of the being Lucifer! ...
    What do we normally tend to think of as evil? I'd think the epitome of an evil person is one who murders, rapes, steals..and so on...

    Why does such a person do this? Because of his wicked motives? Rightly so. Yet, why does he have such motives? Likely because he cannot find peace within himself, like most of us cannot. Yet he treats this personal malady of his by inflicting harm on the world, he thinks that this will somehow make him feel better.

    If we all truly were at peace with ourselves, we would not have any negative energy, therefore there would be no evil akin to those described in line 1.

    Is Evil a property of the world, just like the law of gravity? Suppose we say that eating a child is an evil. Every morally sound person on Earth should agree with us. Why? Because we feel some kind of a connection with the child and imagine ourselves hurt when we see him hurt.

    Yet, if we see an alligator eating a child, do we call him evil? What about a mentally derganed person? I would not think so, because such agents are not capable of making ethical judgments. They simply don't know what they do. Therefore only a clearly reasoning person with intents to hurt should be considered evil. Thus, an evil person is one who is out of tune with his inner nature (lacks inner peace) and derives satisfaction by exerting his negative energy to the outer world. This manifests in his conscious mind in the guise of what we typically refer to as wicked motives, those that can seduce us into behaviors listed in line one. Thus, it follows that evil is necessarily a property of human nature, it is not a property of the external world like gravity is. Therefore anyone who is not a person, or has a sound human mind is not liable to moral judgments.

    Suppose we have a personal god. If he is a person, then indeed he does share our nature. Then basically, you'd have to wonder why does he not get upset at the sight of one of us being tortured like we naturally do at the sight of a child being eaten?Lets take this thought experiment further. Suppose God is a person just like we receive him in the Bible. He emotes just like we tend to. Such a person is analogous to Hobbes's Leviathan. Why would he make the kind of a world that he would? Because it benefits him. He, just like us, likely did not think things through and called whatever he liked good, and whatever he disliked evil. Yet, did not consider that many of the things that pleased him would hurt mankind. Thus, by objective assessment of good and evil, such a god is evil. As he derives gratification from observing things that we typically refer to as evil. He is much analogous to the person who does not see a problem having others harmed to meet the end of his own satisfaction. Suppose he truly is good, (closer in tune with his benign side)as good as a person can be. Yet, when he creates things in his own image, his creations could easily inhere his anima side. Why would he create a less than the best of all possible worlds for us? First of all because he himself, being a person, is far from perfect, therefore is likely unable to. And would not go too far out of his way to accomodate us because doing so may undermine his power, retention of which is his ultimate goal.

    If he is a creator, than he created all things? If he is a person, than he could not be all good or all wise. As notions like 'all good' and 'all wise' are ideas, they are abstractions. They could not be embodied in a concrete essence. As Jung pointed out God is necessarily good and evil. As we all have an anima, thus, him being a person, he must also have an anima. Therefore the key to being a good person is cultivating your good said and shirking your wicked side.

    The most reasonable account for this is God making evil and hell is merely evidence of him carrying out his vendetta against Lucifer and his enemies.

    Dont count on God being all good, just make sure you're on his good side by supporting him and not his enemy Lucifer.

    It is a mistake to equate Lucifer with evil. The most reasonable notion of an evil person is one who kills, rapes, steals..whatever..

    Yet Lucifer's crime was disobedience to authority. He later was demonized as the character who steals, kills and destroys by God. Certainly he may have done so afterwards in his warfare with his enemy, yet there can be no doubt that God engaged in similar acts towards Lucifer. Therefore, killing stealing and destroying on his behalf is not any more or less condemnable than it is on the behalf of God. The reason why we refer to his deeds as evil and to the deeds of God as good is because we think that God will give us what we want in the long run--salvation. Therefore, we do not think about what terms of good or evil truly mean, we just call whatever we like good, and whatever we dont like evil.


    Quote Originally Posted by LIND View Post
    Bertrand Russell asserts that Christians can not adequately give an account about the origin of evil, because even if we said 'Lucifer chose' in order for Lucifer to choose the element of evil, the element must've been available so that it can be chosen!...
    The Christian perspective does not contemplate what good and evil truly are. It equates doing what God likes with good, and doing what he does not like evil. These two terms are highly misleading. What we have is desired by god and undesired by god. Yet, there is very little correlation between the two and moral soundness.


    Quote Originally Posted by LIND View Post
    What do you think?
    (p.s. even if you don't believe in the existence of God, you can still analyze the story and even more, this is your chance to prove that the divine dichotomy (God/Devil) that took place prior to this world's existence, is not valid, and therefore we don't even know who came up with the idea of evil...
    It is not clear if you're asking about the problem of evil, or the what the Bible calls evil 'undesired by god'.

    The answer to the former is that an evil person is one who is out of tune with his inner nature, one who instead of receiving feelings of rerpobation and disgust at the sight of a child being eaten, is 'turned on'.

    As for the latter. What we have is a powerful ruler, we do not know anything about his moral soundness, only that he proclaims to be good. There is no reason for us to take his word for this. He had an enemy who was convinced that he could subvert his power, thus the ruler threatens to destroy him and everyone who follows the enemy for good. Thus exhorts us to follow himself and not the enemy. We do not know which of the two is morally superior or whose cause was right, terrified at the notion of being destroyed we side with the ruler. We dont know which of the two is good, we just call the one who we think will make us happy in the long run good. We never bothered to make an impartial evaluation of character of our father figure god.

    Therefore, the problem of evil has little to do what the Bible considers evil. For this reason, the two should be kept in seperate accounts.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LIND View Post
    Sadly this discussion has veered in the wrong direction. Initially the topic was the origin of evil, more specifically evaluating the account provided by the Scriptures, and finding inconsistencies, lacunes, and so forth, yet many of the comments seem to focus on the human aspect as the source of evil.
    God made man in his own image. So either you accept God as imperfect and capable of evil, or you have to decide that man, by itself, created evil. I was working under the premise that god was pure and altruistic by his very nature, so I explored the latter. As you found my thoughts unsatisfactory, I will leave the analysis of scripture to the more qualified.

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    BLUEWING my friend, I think you might've answered my question.
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