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  1. #61
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I've seen that!

    also, Machiavelli advocated seperation of church and state, claiming that the church would weaken the state and the state corrupt the church, or something like that- it's been over 10 years now since I read The Prince

    never that big of a Machiavelli fan- he had no plot
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #62
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    Machiavelli, like many other writers of that, advocated for the supremacy of the State over the Church, although noted religion served its purposes of social utility.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    So did everyone until they realized Galileo was onto something. Sure, the Church reacted like idiots, but they didn't invent this opinion. What's your point.
    If the Church was wrong about the Sun going round the Earth, perhaps they are wrong about women priests.

  4. #64
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    If the Church was wrong about the Sun going round the Earth, perhaps they are wrong about women priests.
    No shit, read my post. :rolli:
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  5. #65
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    Thumbs down The Old Misogyny

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    it's Peter and the Apostles--men who, due to the culture of their time period, would never even consider women being priests--who had that choice to make.
    Yes, Peter, the apostles and Jesus were misogynists. And so they created a misogynist religion.

    It was only with the publication of, "The Female Eunuch", by Germaine Greer, the great Australian woman, that we discovered that men hated women.

    And it is no accident that Germaine Greer is an Australian, for women gained the vote for the first time in Australia and New Zealand.

    Yes, the New World is new.

    And Australia Felix was founded on the English and Scottish Enlightenment while the Church remains with the old misogyny.

  6. #66
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, Peter, the apostles and Jesus were misogynists. And so they created a misogynist religion.

    It was only with the publication of, "The Female Eunuch", by Germaine Greer, the great Australian woman, that we discovered that men hated women.

    And it is no accident that Germaine Greer is an Australian, for women gained the vote for the first time in Australia and New Zealand.

    Yes, the New World is new.

    And Australia Felix was founded on the English and Scottish Enlightenment while the Church remains with the old misogyny.
    First of all, I really am not in the mood right now to debate whether or not Jesus was sexist. If someone else would like to, fabulous. But I hope you realize that wasn't the implication of my post. You, most likely, already know this, as I did not imply Jesus being sexist once. Peter and the Apostles, sure, possibly, most likely. But if I'm going to believe that God and Jesus are the same person, I don't expect God to have the same belittling mindset, man or no. Call me naive, but I think if Jesus had built the Church himself, that problem wouldn't exist.

    Secondly, I was referring to the point of mine you quoted earlier. The Church's reaction to Galileo was wrong, absolutely. But I feel as if you're implying the Church's former belief that the world was the center of the earth is something stupid, when at the time it sounded quite sound until one person spoke out. Reaction? Bad. Idea? Understandable.

    You've caught me in a nasty mood, and it's not your fault, and I think we've detracted enough from the OP.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    First of all, I really am not in the mood right now to debate whether or not Jesus was sexist.
    The simple fact remains that Jesus chose only men to be his disciples. Jesus excluded women from the apostles.

    And for that reason the Church excludes women from the clergy today.

    And just as Jesus was misogynist, so is the Church.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    at the time it sounded quite sound until one person spoke out.
    And just as misogyny sounded like a good idea until Germaine Greer spoke out.

    Of course you would like to silence us in the name of Jesus, but the cat is out of the bag.

    From now on, defending misogyny will have diminishing returns.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The simple fact remains that Jesus chose only men to be his disciples. Jesus excluded women from the apostles.

    And for that reason the Church excludes women from the clergy today.

    And just as Jesus was misogynist, so is the Church.
    Jesus had female disciples. Not Apostles, I will agree, but disciples.

    Also, there were female deaconesses in the early Church.
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  10. #70
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And just as misogyny sounded like a good idea until Germaine Greer spoke out.

    Of course you would like to silence us in the name of Jesus, but the cat is out of the bag.

    From now on, defending misogyny will have diminishing returns.
    May I ask you a question? Are you implying Catholics are misogynists?
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