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  1. #41
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I hate kids! And I'm not in the least inclined to nurture, and that sure as hell isn't my parents fault either, because I was raised as a good midwestern farm girl...

    thanks for telling me that any time I have any power over anything it's to the shame of men... you're basically saying that I don't have any right to have a leadership position because it's "men's work" and that as long as a man is doing a good job I should go back to making dinner and doing the laundry

    you know what? I've now lost all respect for you for even TYPING that to me- it's not my fault I am a girl and I think that expenses for birth control and tampons are enough of a penalty

    and if that's the sort of god that there is fuck him... I'll go and worship the earth goddess or something! :steam:
    Yikes.

    There is more to nurturing than raising children, cooking dinner, and doing laundry. Also, I never said you were feminine, even if the fact that you are outwardly feminine is good reason to think you are inwardly feminine. It doesn't seem you believe in God, but if you did, then you'd have to grapple with why he made you as you are both outwardly and inwardly. It's not your fault that you were created as you are, but you have a responsibility to discover what you are, the talents that find their origin in your being, and to use your talents wisely.

    I'm not sure what you mean when you write that women's having power over anything implies that men should be ashamed; I didn't write that, and I don't see how that is entailed by what I wrote. Women, (i.e., feminine persons), can and should have power over some things, and men, (i.e., masculine persons), can and should have power over some things. Some of these areas of power overlap; some do not.

    Even if you were feminine, I didn't say you don't have a right to a leadership position. Under the right circumstances, you'd be obligated to take a leadership position. But, if you were feminine, would you enjoy fulfilling a masculine role? I don't think so. I think you'd find it burdensome, and if you had to do it, your doing it would be a personal sacrifice made out of love.

  2. #42
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Yikes.

    There is more to nurturing than raising children, cooking dinner, and doing laundry. Also, I never said you were feminine, even if the fact that you are outwardly feminine is good reason to think you are inwardly feminine. It doesn't seem you believe in God, but if you did, then you'd have to grapple with why he made you as you are both outwardly and inwardly. It's not your fault that you were created as you are, but you have a responsibility to discover what you are, the talents that find their origin in your being, and to use your talents wisely.

    I'm not sure what you mean when you write that women's having power over anything implies that men should be ashamed; I didn't write that, and I don't see how that is entailed by what I wrote. Women, (i.e., feminine persons), can and should have power over some things, and men, (i.e., masculine persons), can and should have power over some things. Some of these areas of power overlap; some do not.

    Even if you were feminine, I didn't say you don't have a right to a leadership position. Under the right circumstances, you'd be obligated to take a leadership position. But, if you are feminine, would you enjoy fulfilling a masculine role? I don't think so. I think you'd find it burdensome, and if you had to do it, your doing it would be a personal sacrifice made out of love.
    I am woman through and through- I just reject the notion of "women's work" and "women's role"

    I am a PERSON, not a special category to be denied rights! I don't care if my man decides that he wants to take up knitting or something- he has every right to do so, just like I have the right to fix the car!

    it doesn't mean that I'm going to go buy a strap on so that I can do EVERYTHING that a man does... I'd have no nerves in it, so what's the use... and you seem to have the deluded beleif that I don't enjoy being a girl, drinking bubbly wine, painting my toenails and loving men- I am mentally a girl as well- I'm just not a stereotypical doormat housewife!

    I've worked in male dominated industries most of my life and prefer that to the typical feminine jobs- the idea that I'd find that a burden is silly- and I've been the breadwinner, the one who fixed the car and the one who did all of the home improvement work plenty of times as well and it didn't bother me in the least- I even pay on dates half the time! willingly!

    I'm inept at comforting sad people, I don't want to help the lost kid in the grociery store and I don't care to hear about people's feelings- I am NOT nurturing and I don't even see why that should matter when it comes to leadership positions if I was! Leaders need to nurture as well as dictate! (he he... I said dick! )

    I refuse to beleive in a God who puts me in a category based on gender/sex- I am a human being- I want to be treated as one! Telling me that I'm not fit to lead because that's man's work is silly and close minded

    I'm not an atheist- I beleive in some form of god- but I sure as hell hate your god- anyone who views society in such an unequal manner doesn't deserve worship and adulation

    thanks for the assumptions you made- you really know nothing about me
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #43
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    The role of women (in a church or otherwise) is a completely separate topic from whether the government has the right to interfere with the practice of a church body.

    It's not surprising that people take the topic off in that direction, though, since it's pretty hard to defend the use of government force to restrict people's religious freedoms.
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  4. #44
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post

    It's not surprising that people take the topic off in that direction, though, since it's pretty hard to defend the use of government force to restrict people's religious freedoms.
    Actually I would think that's part of the backing intentions of this law - trying to motivate churches to change from within by threatening with government action. In reality i don't think said intervention would ever really happen, and I think most people know that on both sides here. But Sometimes political forces just want to wield their teeth so they draft up this kind of law to put pressures on organizations to change.

  5. #45
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    C'mon Catholic babies are baptised before they can give consent.

    Even the Roman Catholic Church teaches that free will does not come into effect until the age of seven.

    So almost all Catholics do not become members of the Church through their own free will.
    And even after Confirmation, the priests still hold guns to the children's heads just in case they think about not attending mass, or heaven forbid, renounce the Catholic faith.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  6. #46
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    The role of women (in a church or otherwise) is a completely separate topic from whether the government has the right to interfere with the practice of a church body.

    It's not surprising that people take the topic off in that direction, though, since it's pretty hard to defend the use of government force to restrict people's religious freedoms.
    oh- I think that church and state mix like hairdryers and baths... mostly out of fear of the church even further corrupting the state

    the practice that is being threatened, however, I find heinous, and decided that, though I don't think the state should interfere, the church is prejudiced and stone age in that thought nonetheless
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #47
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Thumbs down The Limitation of Power and Liberal Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    ...it's pretty hard to defend the use of government force to restrict people's religious freedoms.
    My Government limits religious freedom by separating the Church and State.

    And my Government limits religious freedom by criminalising infibulation.

    And my Government limits religious freedom by criminalising mass murder in the name of Jihad and martyrdom.

    And my Government limits religious freedom by criminalising child sexual abuse in religious institutions and its cover up.

    And my Government limits religious freedom by criminalising the blood sacrifice of animals.

    And my Government limits religious freedom by banning corporal punishment of children in religious institutions.

    And who knows, they may yet limit religious freedom by banning discrimination against women.

    For my Government is a liberal democratic Government based on the limitation of power. As my Government knows that power tends to corrupt and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.

    What does your Government do?

  8. #48
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I am woman through and through- I just reject the notion of "women's work" and "women's role"

    I am a PERSON, not a special category to be denied rights! I don't care if my man decides that he wants to take up knitting or something- he has every right to do so, just like I have the right to fix the car!

    it doesn't mean that I'm going to go buy a strap on so that I can do EVERYTHING that a man does... I'd have no nerves in it, so what's the use... and you seem to have the deluded beleif that I don't enjoy being a girl, drinking bubbly wine, painting my toenails and loving men- I am mentally a girl as well- I'm just not a stereotypical doormat housewife!

    I've worked in male dominated industries most of my life and prefer that to the typical feminine jobs- the idea that I'd find that a burden is silly- and I've been the breadwinner, the one who fixed the car and the one who did all of the home improvement work plenty of times as well and it didn't bother me in the least- I even pay on dates half the time! willingly!

    I'm inept at comforting sad people, I don't want to help the lost kid in the grociery store and I don't care to hear about people's feelings- I am NOT nurturing and I don't even see why that should matter when it comes to leadership positions if I was! Leaders need to nurture as well as dictate! (he he... I said dick! )

    I refuse to beleive in a God who puts me in a category based on gender/sex- I am a human being- I want to be treated as one! Telling me that I'm not fit to lead because that's man's work is silly and close minded

    I'm not an atheist- I beleive in some form of god- but I sure as hell hate your god- anyone who views society in such an unequal manner doesn't deserve worship and adulation

    thanks for the assumptions you made- you really know nothing about me
    Femininity isn't defined by desiring to paint one's toenails and liking bubbly wine, and masculinity isn't defined by working on cars or being a bread-winner.

    I think the essence of masculinity and femininity is best illuminated by an analogy from human biology. (Big surprise). What do men and women contribute to the creation of another human being? A man contributes some sticky, white stuff. The woman takes that nearly formless goop and turns it into a baby.

    This is just an analogy for a much broader, more general reality. A feminine personality takes something nascent and develops it to reveal it's latent excellence. This needn't be restricted to the household. Women can succeed in business, in the sciences, in math, philosophy, anything.

    This is why God is usually referred to as a "him," and this is why the church is described as the bride of Christ. In Genesis, it says that God made man in his image, male and female he made them. This means that God is both masculine and feminine. But God also told man to have dominion over the creation; to discover the essence of things and thereby name the creation and rule over it. That is, man is to discover the nature of things created in order to rule over them to reveal the latent excellence of God's creation--a feminine act.

  9. #49
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Femininity isn't defined by desiring to paint one's toenails and liking bubbly wine, and masculinity isn't defined by working on cars or being a bread-winner.

    I think the essence of masculinity and femininity is best illuminated by an analogy from human biology. (Big surprise). What do men and women contribute to the creation of another human being? A man contributes some sticky, white stuff. The woman takes that nearly formless goop and turns it into a baby.

    This is just an analogy for a much broader, more general reality. A feminine personality takes something nascent and develops it to reveal it's latent excellence. This needn't be restricted to the household. Women can succeed in business, in the sciences, in math, philosophy, anything.

    This is why God is usually referred to as a "him," and this is why the church is described as the bride of Christ. In Genesis, it says that God made man in his image, male and female he made them. This means that God is both masculine and feminine. But God also told man to have dominion over the creation; to discover the essence of things and thereby name the creation and rule over it. That is, man is to discover the nature of things created in order to rule over them to reveal the latent excellence of God's creation--a feminine act.
    C'mon the Church once believed the Sun revolved around the Earth.

  10. #50
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Femininity isn't defined by desiring to paint one's toenails and liking bubbly wine, and masculinity isn't defined by working on cars or being a bread-winner.

    I think the essence of masculinity and femininity is best illuminated by an analogy from human biology. (Big surprise). What do men and women contribute to the creation of another human being? A man contributes some sticky, white stuff. The woman takes that nearly formless goop and turns it into a baby.

    This is just an analogy for a much broader, more general reality. A feminine personality takes something nascent and develops it to reveal it's latent excellence. This needn't be restricted to the household. Women can succeed in business, in the sciences, in math, philosophy, anything.

    This is why God is usually referred to as a "him," and this is why the church is described as the bride of Christ. In Genesis, it says that God made man in his image, male and female he made them. This means that God is both masculine and feminine. But God also told man to have dominion over the creation; to discover the essence of things and thereby name the creation and rule over it. That is, man is to discover the nature of things created in order to rule over them to reveal the latent excellence of God's creation--a feminine act.
    I don't wanna have a baby!

    I also don't think that god has a gender- that would be messed up! I don't like to have to think of God's weiner :horor: (and the great almighty penis of the lord went flacid when he saw what was occurring on his creation... yeah, I don't think that would catch on...)

    Plus- if the church is the bride of christ shouldn't the heirarchy be women? I mean, I didn't think the church approved of men being brides

    The Bible was written by men- of course they'd call God a dude! If Jesus himself wrote the Bible I might consider taking things it said to be the word of God, but since it was prophets (and we all know that some pretty odd people can call themselves prophets- like The End Is Near guys on the streetcorner!) I beleive it should be taken with a grain of salt.

    I'll go with having a sex role (sorry- I have nothing with which to penetrate!) but no gender role for me.
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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