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  1. #31
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    *high 5 to jock*

    I'd like someone to prove to me that JESUS said that women are second class citizens- most of the "proof" that people present to me comes from Paul, who was a misogynistic asshole

    I mean, the bible is all manipulations of scripture to what a bunch of old dead european men thought was appropriate anyways, and they didn't WANT for a lot of classes of society to beleive that they should have rights!

    I mean, it would be nice to beleive, but that grade of inequality is disgusting to me- I can't help how I was born, and to be treated differently by a god who is supposed to be love? that's absolute shit!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #32
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Regardless of what pinheads think about the Catholic tradition of the clergy, what is important here is that the members of the Church are all members of their own free will. They can come and go as they please. So let them practice as their rules dictate. That kind of government intervention is wrong.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  3. #33
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I am mostly of the opinion that the Catholic church is a reactionary force against women's progress, but, my opinion aside, I don't think forcing these people by law to act contrary to their religious beliefs is necessarily a good thing (if their practices are within the law to begin with, that is.)
    not only that, but i just can't see them enforcing it....

    Nevermind trying to get catholics to give priest-ess status to women, which i can see happening, but can you imagine the government walking into a Mosque and telling Muslims there that they need to have a certain %age of their Imams(preists) be Women, ala affirmative action? That's what the law would have to do, or else it would be discriminating against Catholics directly.

    Its not gonna happen, it would be a civil war in no time. Change will have to come another way.

  4. #34
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Regardless of what pinheads think about the Catholic tradition of the clergy, what is important here is that the members of the Church are all members of their own free will. They can come and go as they please. So let them practice as their rules dictate. That kind of government intervention is wrong.
    C'mon Catholic babies are baptised before they can give consent.

    Even the Roman Catholic Church teaches that free will does not come into effect until the age of seven.

    So almost all Catholics do not become members of the Church through their own free will.

  5. #35
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I don't think the govt should interfere, but I certainly think that the church is wrong- very very wrong... so I guess you didn't read my later post before quoting me lowtech redneck...
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    can you imagine the government walking into a Mosque and telling Muslims there that they need to have a certain %age of their Imams (priests) be Women, ala affirmative action?
    Its not gonna happen, it would be a civil war in no time.
    You may not have noticed but the Islamists have already declared war.

    So the very least we can do is uphold our Western values of liberty and equality, particularly the liberty and equality of women.

    Women only gained the vote for the first time in 1901 in Australia and New Zealand.

    So we can expect it will take time for the Roman Catholic Church to catch up.

    But we can't even expect Islam to catch up.

    For Islamists prefer death to liberty and equality, and in particular our deaths.

    In fact 57 Islamic States, comprising The Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC), have publicly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

  7. #37
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    An honest respect for the different natures and vocations of men and women is not discrimination.
    QFT.

    It's not that women can't be effective spiritual leaders. Deborah the prophetess is a great example of a woman leader in the history of the church. But when a woman assumes such a position of leadership it is to the shame of the men; it means we men have so screwed up what we ought to be doing that women need to step in and do our job for us--which can be done. (see Deborah).

    If you are feminine, then you will be naturally inclined to nurture. This doesn't imply inferiority, only preference.

  8. #38
    Senior Member BlueGray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    but females are still closed off from becoming priests, cardinals, the pope... its not fair- it's like saying "well, women can become the richest person in the country, and they can own companies, but they can't run for congress or be elected president"

    exclusion from the high ranking positions is a form of discrimination- there's aspects of catholicism that I like, but I can't overlook the discrimination against women in ranking positions- that's pretty unforgivable in my book :steam:
    To me the difference is you can choose your faith but not so much your government. I disagree with the catholic church and as such use my ability to choose to not be a participant. Regardless of whether I agree with the ideals the government is using, telling people that they can't make choices for themselves, when those choices aren't harming other, is not the right of the government.
    Ne > Ti > Si >> Te > Se >> Fe > Fi > Ni
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  9. #39
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    *high 5 to jock*

    I'd like someone to prove to me that JESUS said that women are second class citizens- most of the "proof" that people present to me comes from Paul, who was a misogynistic asshole
    :
    I went to a catholic high school, and we were required to study the gospels in junior year, and I don't recall Jesus himself ever really orating anything about the creation of a clergy hierarchy in general, and if he did it was highly allegorical. He was far more mystical, and everything in quotes had a lot to do with metaphor and allegory. Although I'm sure Peguy [or any religious catholic for that matter] could provide passages that indicate otherwise if he wanted to go down that road.

    I'm more of the opinion that once he died, his disciples truly took over and the Church as we know it was largely their own doing. But it's been a LONG time since I looked at the Bible academically anyways, so I could be wrong.

    Anyways, I don't really think the government should interfere with any religions' practices, unless it is explicitly illegal: Underage marriages, crimes, etc.



  10. #40
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    QFT.

    It's not that women can't be effective spiritual leaders. Deborah the prophetess is a great example of a woman leader in the history of the church. But when a woman assumes such a position of leadership it is to the shame of the men; it means we men have so screwed up what we ought to be doing that women need to step in and do our job for us--which can be done. (see Deborah).

    If you are feminine, then you will be naturally inclined to nurture. This doesn't imply inferiority, only preference.
    I hate kids! And I'm not in the least inclined to nurture, and that sure as hell isn't my parents fault either, because I was raised as a good midwestern farm girl...

    thanks for telling me that any time I have any power over anything it's to the shame of men... you're basically saying that I don't have any right to have a leadership position because it's "men's work" and that as long as a man is doing a good job I should go back to making dinner and doing the laundry

    you know what? I've now lost all respect for you for even TYPING that to me- it's not my fault I am a girl and I think that expenses for birth control and tampons are enough of a penalty

    and if that's the sort of god that there is fuck him... I'll go and worship the earth goddess or something! :steam:

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueGray View Post
    To me the difference is you can choose your faith but not so much your government. I disagree with the catholic church and as such use my ability to choose to not be a participant. Regardless of whether I agree with the ideals the government is using, telling people that they can't make choices for themselves, when those choices aren't harming other, is not the right of the government.
    good job reading farther than my first quote...
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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