Catholic ban on women priests 'illegal under Harriet Harman equality bill'

[Owl]

I hate kids! And I'm not in the least inclined to nurture, and that sure as hell isn't my parents fault either, because I was raised as a good midwestern farm girl...

thanks for telling me that any time I have any power over anything it's to the shame of men... you're basically saying that I don't have any right to have a leadership position because it's "men's work" and that as long as a man is doing a good job I should go back to making dinner and doing the laundry

you know what? I've now lost all respect for you for even TYPING that to me- it's not my fault I am a girl and I think that expenses for birth control and tampons are enough of a penalty

and if that's the sort of god that there is fuck him... I'll go and worship the earth goddess or something! :steam:

Yikes.

There is more to nurturing than raising children, cooking dinner, and doing laundry. Also, I never said you were feminine, even if the fact that you are outwardly feminine is good reason to think you are inwardly feminine. It doesn't seem you believe in God, but if you did, then you'd have to grapple with why he made you as you are both outwardly and inwardly. It's not your fault that you were created as you are, but you have a responsibility to discover what you are, the talents that find their origin in your being, and to use your talents wisely.

I'm not sure what you mean when you write that women's having power over anything implies that men should be ashamed; I didn't write that, and I don't see how that is entailed by what I wrote. Women, (i.e., feminine persons), can and should have power over some things, and men, (i.e., masculine persons), can and should have power over some things. Some of these areas of power overlap; some do not.

Even if you were feminine, I didn't say you don't have a right to a leadership position. Under the right circumstances, you'd be obligated to take a leadership position. But, if you were feminine, would you enjoy fulfilling a masculine role? I don't think so. I think you'd find it burdensome, and if you had to do it, your doing it would be a personal sacrifice made out of love.

 

[miss fortune]

Yikes.

There is more to nurturing than raising children, cooking dinner, and doing laundry. Also, I never said you were feminine, even if the fact that you are outwardly feminine is good reason to think you are inwardly feminine. It doesn't seem you believe in God, but if you did, then you'd have to grapple with why he made you as you are both outwardly and inwardly. It's not your fault that you were created as you are, but you have a responsibility to discover what you are, the talents that find their origin in your being, and to use your talents wisely.

I'm not sure what you mean when you write that women's having power over anything implies that men should be ashamed; I didn't write that, and I don't see how that is entailed by what I wrote. Women, (i.e., feminine persons), can and should have power over some things, and men, (i.e., masculine persons), can and should have power over some things. Some of these areas of power overlap; some do not.

Even if you were feminine, I didn't say you don't have a right to a leadership position. Under the right circumstances, you'd be obligated to take a leadership position. But, if you are feminine, would you enjoy fulfilling a masculine role? I don't think so. I think you'd find it burdensome, and if you had to do it, your doing it would be a personal sacrifice made out of love.

I am woman through and through- I just reject the notion of "women's work" and "women's role"

I am a PERSON, not a special category to be denied rights! I don't care if my man decides that he wants to take up knitting or something- he has every right to do so, just like I have the right to fix the car!

it doesn't mean that I'm going to go buy a strap on so that I can do EVERYTHING that a man does... I'd have no nerves in it, so what's the use... and you seem to have the deluded beleif that I don't enjoy being a girl, drinking bubbly wine, painting my toenails and loving men- I am mentally a girl as well- I'm just not a stereotypical doormat housewife!

I've worked in male dominated industries most of my life and prefer that to the typical feminine jobs- the idea that I'd find that a burden is silly- and I've been the breadwinner, the one who fixed the car and the one who did all of the home improvement work plenty of times as well and it didn't bother me in the least- I even pay on dates half the time! willingly!

I'm inept at comforting sad people, I don't want to help the lost kid in the grociery store and I don't care to hear about people's feelings- I am NOT nurturing and I don't even see why that should matter when it comes to leadership positions if I was! Leaders need to nurture as well as dictate! (he he... I said dick! )

I refuse to beleive in a God who puts me in a category based on gender/sex- I am a human being- I want to be treated as one! Telling me that I'm not fit to lead because that's man's work is silly and close minded

I'm not an atheist- I beleive in some form of god- but I sure as hell hate your god- anyone who views society in such an unequal manner doesn't deserve worship and adulation

thanks for the assumptions you made- you really know nothing about me

 

[Jeffster]

The role of women (in a church or otherwise) is a completely separate topic from whether the government has the right to interfere with the practice of a church body.

It's not surprising that people take the topic off in that direction, though, since it's pretty hard to defend the use of government force to restrict people's religious freedoms.

 

[nozflubber]

It's not surprising that people take the topic off in that direction, though, since it's pretty hard to defend the use of government force to restrict people's religious freedoms.

Actually I would think that's part of the backing intentions of this law - trying to motivate churches to change from within by threatening with government action. In reality i don't think said intervention would ever really happen, and I think most people know that on both sides here. But Sometimes political forces just want to wield their teeth so they draft up this kind of law to put pressures on organizations to change.

 

[Take Five]

C'mon Catholic babies are baptised before they can give consent.

Even the Roman Catholic Church teaches that free will does not come into effect until the age of seven.

So almost all Catholics do not become members of the Church through their own free will.

And even after Confirmation, the priests still hold guns to the children's heads just in case they think about not attending mass, or heaven forbid, renounce the Catholic faith.

 

[miss fortune]

The role of women (in a church or otherwise) is a completely separate topic from whether the government has the right to interfere with the practice of a church body.

It's not surprising that people take the topic off in that direction, though, since it's pretty hard to defend the use of government force to restrict people's religious freedoms.

oh- I think that church and state mix like hairdryers and baths... mostly out of fear of the church even further corrupting the state

the practice that is being threatened, however, I find heinous, and decided that, though I don't think the state should interfere, the church is prejudiced and stone age in that thought nonetheless

 

[Mole]

The Limitation of Power and Liberal Democracy

...it's pretty hard to defend the use of government force to restrict people's religious freedoms.

My Government limits religious freedom by separating the Church and State.

And my Government limits religious freedom by criminalising infibulation.

And my Government limits religious freedom by criminalising mass murder in the name of Jihad and martyrdom.

And my Government limits religious freedom by criminalising child sexual abuse in religious institutions and its cover up.

And my Government limits religious freedom by criminalising the blood sacrifice of animals.

And my Government limits religious freedom by banning corporal punishment of children in religious institutions.

And who knows, they may yet limit religious freedom by banning discrimination against women.

For my Government is a liberal democratic Government based on the limitation of power. As my Government knows that power tends to corrupt and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.

What does your Government do?

 

[Owl]

I am woman through and through- I just reject the notion of "women's work" and "women's role"

I am a PERSON, not a special category to be denied rights! I don't care if my man decides that he wants to take up knitting or something- he has every right to do so, just like I have the right to fix the car!

it doesn't mean that I'm going to go buy a strap on so that I can do EVERYTHING that a man does... I'd have no nerves in it, so what's the use... and you seem to have the deluded beleif that I don't enjoy being a girl, drinking bubbly wine, painting my toenails and loving men- I am mentally a girl as well- I'm just not a stereotypical doormat housewife!

I've worked in male dominated industries most of my life and prefer that to the typical feminine jobs- the idea that I'd find that a burden is silly- and I've been the breadwinner, the one who fixed the car and the one who did all of the home improvement work plenty of times as well and it didn't bother me in the least- I even pay on dates half the time! willingly!

I'm inept at comforting sad people, I don't want to help the lost kid in the grociery store and I don't care to hear about people's feelings- I am NOT nurturing and I don't even see why that should matter when it comes to leadership positions if I was! Leaders need to nurture as well as dictate! (he he... I said dick! )

I refuse to beleive in a God who puts me in a category based on gender/sex- I am a human being- I want to be treated as one! Telling me that I'm not fit to lead because that's man's work is silly and close minded

I'm not an atheist- I beleive in some form of god- but I sure as hell hate your god- anyone who views society in such an unequal manner doesn't deserve worship and adulation

thanks for the assumptions you made- you really know nothing about me

Femininity isn't defined by desiring to paint one's toenails and liking bubbly wine, and masculinity isn't defined by working on cars or being a bread-winner.

I think the essence of masculinity and femininity is best illuminated by an analogy from human biology. (Big surprise). What do men and women contribute to the creation of another human being? A man contributes some sticky, white stuff. The woman takes that nearly formless goop and turns it into a baby.

This is just an analogy for a much broader, more general reality. A feminine personality takes something nascent and develops it to reveal it's latent excellence. This needn't be restricted to the household. Women can succeed in business, in the sciences, in math, philosophy, anything.

This is why God is usually referred to as a "him," and this is why the church is described as the bride of Christ. In Genesis, it says that God made man in his image, male and female he made them. This means that God is both masculine and feminine. But God also told man to have dominion over the creation; to discover the essence of things and thereby name the creation and rule over it. That is, man is to discover the nature of things created in order to rule over them to reveal the latent excellence of God's creation--a feminine act.

 

[Mole]

Femininity isn't defined by desiring to paint one's toenails and liking bubbly wine, and masculinity isn't defined by working on cars or being a bread-winner.

I think the essence of masculinity and femininity is best illuminated by an analogy from human biology. (Big surprise). What do men and women contribute to the creation of another human being? A man contributes some sticky, white stuff. The woman takes that nearly formless goop and turns it into a baby.

This is just an analogy for a much broader, more general reality. A feminine personality takes something nascent and develops it to reveal it's latent excellence. This needn't be restricted to the household. Women can succeed in business, in the sciences, in math, philosophy, anything.

This is why God is usually referred to as a "him," and this is why the church is described as the bride of Christ. In Genesis, it says that God made man in his image, male and female he made them. This means that God is both masculine and feminine. But God also told man to have dominion over the creation; to discover the essence of things and thereby name the creation and rule over it. That is, man is to discover the nature of things created in order to rule over them to reveal the latent excellence of God's creation--a feminine act.

C'mon the Church once believed the Sun revolved around the Earth.

 

[miss fortune]

Femininity isn't defined by desiring to paint one's toenails and liking bubbly wine, and masculinity isn't defined by working on cars or being a bread-winner.

I think the essence of masculinity and femininity is best illuminated by an analogy from human biology. (Big surprise). What do men and women contribute to the creation of another human being? A man contributes some sticky, white stuff. The woman takes that nearly formless goop and turns it into a baby.

This is just an analogy for a much broader, more general reality. A feminine personality takes something nascent and develops it to reveal it's latent excellence. This needn't be restricted to the household. Women can succeed in business, in the sciences, in math, philosophy, anything.

This is why God is usually referred to as a "him," and this is why the church is described as the bride of Christ. In Genesis, it says that God made man in his image, male and female he made them. This means that God is both masculine and feminine. But God also told man to have dominion over the creation; to discover the essence of things and thereby name the creation and rule over it. That is, man is to discover the nature of things created in order to rule over them to reveal the latent excellence of God's creation--a feminine act.

I don't wanna have a baby!

I also don't think that god has a gender- that would be messed up! I don't like to have to think of God's weiner :horor: (and the great almighty penis of the lord went flacid when he saw what was occurring on his creation... yeah, I don't think that would catch on...)

Plus- if the church is the bride of christ shouldn't the heirarchy be women? I mean, I didn't think the church approved of men being brides

The Bible was written by men- of course they'd call God a dude! If Jesus himself wrote the Bible I might consider taking things it said to be the word of God, but since it was prophets (and we all know that some pretty odd people can call themselves prophets- like The End Is Near guys on the streetcorner!) I beleive it should be taken with a grain of salt.

I'll go with having a sex role (sorry- I have nothing with which to penetrate!) but no gender role for me.

 

[Take Five]

C'mon the Church once believed the Sun revolved around the Earth.

This thread really isn't supposed to be about stances on the Church, it's about government intervention in religion.

 

[Mole]

And even after Confirmation, the priests still hold guns to the children's heads just in case they think about not attending mass, or heaven forbid, renounce the Catholic faith.

Under Islam the punishment for apostasy is death.

However Saint Augustine taught the apostates should be put to death and Saint Thomas Aquinas thought apostates should be tortured.

However liberal democratic Governments have limited the power of the Church to torture and put apostates to death.

And to their credit the Roman Catholic Church now accepts these limitations on its power.

 

[Take Five]

Under Islam the punishment for apostasy is death.

However Saint Augustine taught the apostates should be put to death and Saint Thomas Aquinas thought apostates should be tortured.

However liberal democratic Governments have limited the power of the Church to torture and put apostates to death.

And to their credit the Roman Catholic Church now accepts these limitations of its power.

I'd like a separate thread to be started posts with anti-Catholic insinuations like that, so we can discuss them properly without detracting from the issue of government interference with religious liberty.

 

[Mole]

I'd like a separate thread to be started posts with anti-Catholic insinuations like that, so we can discuss them properly without detracting from the issue of government interference with religious liberty.

And while it is true Islam takes offence at cartoonists, it seems a little much for Catholicism to take offence at posters.

 

[Lark]

Its all the muddled BS of the temporal powers, I stopped giving a damn about them after communism, fascism and Nazism, if those things werent mad and bad enough they're legislating to change the meaning of standard english with same sex "marriages" and stuff like that. Just ignore them.

 

[Take Five]

And while it is true Islam takes offence at cartoonists, it seems a little much for Catholicism to take offence at posters.

No really, would you want to make another thread?

 

[Mole]

Its all the muddled BS of the temporal powers, I stopped giving a damn about them after communism, fascism and Nazism, if those things werent mad and bad enough they're legislating to change the meaning of standard english with same sex "marriages" and stuff like that. Just ignore them.

Well, the French have their Academy of France to maintain standard French. So perhaps we should follow their good example and have an Academy of English to maintain standard English.

And of course the first mission of the Academy of English would be to standardise English in the works of Shakespeare.

 

[Bubbles]

In terms of government making people do things in their religion: dislike. In terms of my religion handling this themselves: like.

I have really a few issues with my faith, and they all boil down to one rule: Humility. Humility is accepting that the rules of the Catholic church are to be obeyed out of trust, even when you don't understand them.

Ok, personally, I'm not for that. God gave us brains to reason with. And I believe if God wants us to do something, He'll leave us ample reasoning to follow through with it. And in the case of women not becoming priests, I see no reasoning. Having gone to parochial school 14 years, I asked many many religion teachers this question. I always heard "Well, Jesus didn't make his disciples female," and "we do respect women, but in different ways."

I have a rebuttal to this. Women were, in fact, disciples of Christ. Maybe not Apostles, but disciples. And there were women deaconesses in the early church, and if we know what a deacon is, it's usually someone on the way to priesthood. Also, the act of determining who got to be a priest was decided post-Jesus. So basically it's Peter and the Apostles--men who, due to the culture of their time period, would never even consider women being priests--who had that choice to make.

The Church has always had a hard time changing, and I believe if enough voices of reason within it speak up, we may gain a foothold. I hear all the time about the lack of priests in our era, and this would be a wonderful way to fix it.

C'mon the Church once believed the Sun revolved around the Earth.

So did everyone until they realized Galileo was onto something. Sure, the Church reacted like idiots, but they didn't invent this opinion. What's your point.

 

[ajblaise]

I notice you say that a lot. Usually when you can't think of anything remotely comprehensible to say back.

Fuh fuh fuh for real.

 

[Sniffles]

oh- I think that church and state mix like hairdryers and baths... mostly out of fear of the church even further corrupting the state

Actually it was the other way around: seperation of church and state came about to protect the Church from interference from the state. This was a common problem in England, not just with Henry VIII (to which St. Thomas More went to his death) but centuries earlier with King Henry II, to which St. Thomas Becket also went to his death standing up to royal authority.

If you're ever looking for a good movie to watch, along with A man for all seasons, you might also enjoy Becket with Peter O'Toole and Richard Burton at their acting primes:
[youtube="y6V85T_Qk8g"]Becket movie[/youtube]