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  1. #111
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wank View Post
    1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    1Cr 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
    ^ Exactly why solo scriptura is a no-go in my book.
    4w3, IEI, so/sx/sp, female, and Cancer sign.

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  2. #112
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    How so? The state derives its authority from God, who is the author of the order of being.
    I know that you feel very strongly about this Peguy, but practically, no it doesn't. Now it may be true that people, even early on in the nation's history (more debatable than commonly thought, I believe) may have said this. But it's not true. The state derives its authority from the consent of the governed, the codification and rule of law, and (preferably) as a last resort, the overwhelming advantage that the military has in any application of force. People may take examples from tribal communities in religious texts when it comes to formulating laws, etc. -- but that doesn't mean that the authority of the state comes directly from God.

    Unless you're also willing to admit that states that have committed atrocities did so with the backing and authority of God. Many have claimed to, I'm sure.
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  3. #113
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It's a good point. If the church operated on an all-volunteer basis (as many other religious organizations do, btw) it would be one thing, but once business gets added to the mix with official employment and salaries and benefits, it gets sketchy to claim religious exemption from discrimination laws.
    What about religious non-profit schools, charities, adoption agencies, orphanages, or just plain centralized religious organizations? To label such enterprises as the equivalent of secular businesses in this instance is to effectively, and deliberately, hinder the free exercise of religions one disapproves of (regardless of whether such disapproval is based on doctrine or organizational structure).

    Anti-discrimination laws pertaining to non-government organizations, despite their good intentions, are basically necessary evils at best; applying them to private businesses is already problematic and potentially detrimental to fundamental civil liberties, but applying them to not-for-profit enterprises that need the services of salaried workers to function creates a blatantly undue burden and constitutes a violation of both religious liberty and freedom of association.

  4. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I don't know how many priests have told me that the Church is not a democracy. So in reality, your chances of fixing it from within are slim.

    The Church has apologized for giving Galileo short shrift - 500 years later.

    And the Church has said the Inquisition was a mistake - some mistake, it ran for 600 years.

    And the Church has apologized for child sexual abuse but it still continues in the Philippines and South America.

    The Church has apologized for being anti-Judaic for 2,000 years but denies anti-semitism and any responsibility for the shoah.

    And the Church keeps on telling Africans that condoms are worse then AIDS.

    You'll fix it from within? Tell that to Galileo, the victims of the Inquisition, the victims of child sexual abuse, Africans and Jews.

    I don't think women should hold their breath.
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    If we balance any of this against the accumulated collective crimes of rationalism and the enlightenments bastards it seriously pales by comparison.

    Now you're getting your kicks from bashing Catholicism and I get that, its not a taboo like Jew baiting or even islamophobia but dont pretend your heart bleeds for the victims of abuse or unordained women.

    It smacks of insincerity because you KNOW that all these instances are not intrinsic to Catholicism, otherwise they would still be happening, they wouldnt be a source of scandal, shame or reproach, they are all the crimes of individuals who've abuse their office and, frequently, the public (not just RCs) who let them.

  5. #115
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    If we balance any of this against the accumulated collective crimes of rationalism and the enlightenments bastards it seriously pales by comparison.

    Now you're getting your kicks from bashing Catholicism and I get that, its not a taboo like Jew baiting or even islamophobia but dont pretend your heart bleeds for the victims of abuse or unordained women.

    It smacks of insincerity because you KNOW that all these instances are not intrinsic to Catholicism, otherwise they would still be happening, they wouldnt be a source of scandal, shame or reproach, they are all the crimes of individuals who've abuse their office and, frequently, the public (not just RCs) who let them.
    That's another one for your ever-expanding, balloon-like Ignore List.

    Say what, buddy. Why doncha put everyone on your Ignore List and enjoy the Zen experience...

    Of course you can't read this. Because I'm on yer Ignore List.

    Keep skimming!

  6. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    ^ Exactly why solo scriptura is a no-go in my book.
    Solo scriptura is one of the pillars of protestantism not roman catholicism.

  7. #117
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    What about religious non-profit schools, charities, adoption agencies, orphanages, or just plain centralized religious organizations? To label such enterprises as the equivalent of secular businesses in this instance is to effectively, and deliberately, hinder the free exercise of religions one disapproves of (regardless of whether such disapproval is based on doctrine or organizational structure).
    They *are* the equivalent of secular, non-profit organizations under the law -- any other condition would be a violation of the separation of church and state. I work for a (secular) non-profit organization. If my employer were to say "sorry, we won't hire women for supervisory positions", an army of bright-eyed fire-breathing litigators would be on our doorstep within the hour. And they'd be right. Just as our right to free speech doesn't extend to yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater, our right to freedom of religion doesn't extend to using it as a justification to discriminate against people in situations that would otherwise be considered against the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Anti-discrimination laws pertaining to non-government organizations, despite their good intentions, are basically necessary evils at best; applying them to private businesses is already problematic and potentially detrimental to fundamental civil liberties, but applying them to not-for-profit enterprises that need the services of salaried workers to function creates a blatantly undue burden and constitutes a violation of both religious liberty and freedom of association.
    How does expanding the population of people who are "eligible" for employment create a "blatantly undue burden" for enterprises that "need the services of salaried workers?" I don't think for an instant that you'd propose that refusing to consider people of various ethnic groups for employment to be an expression of religious liberty -- why would gender not receive the same respect?

    Sure, there are some positions where gender is paramount in determining if someone is a viable candidate. Those positions are "sperm donor" and "surrogate mother". There might be one or two more, but you get the idea.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    I know that you feel very strongly about this Peguy, but practically, no it doesn't.
    Because you say so?

    People may take examples from tribal communities in religious texts when it comes to formulating laws, etc. -- but that doesn't mean that the authority of the state comes directly from God.
    It certainly undermines the notion that religion and law have nothing to do with each other. After all, the notion that authority derives from the consent of the people derives in large part from the Biblical concept of the convenant between God and the nation of Israel; and was later further formulated during the Medieval period.

    Unless you're also willing to admit that states that have committed atrocities did so with the backing and authority of God. Many have claimed to, I'm sure.
    Many have certainly claimed so, but in the case of Christian teachings that's only so when the state actually conforms to God's laws. If not, then they're not operating with the backing of god. Simple as that.

  9. #119
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It certainly undermines the notion that religion and law have nothing to do with each other. After all, the notion that authority derives from the consent of the people derives in large part from the Biblical concept of the convenant between God and the nation of Israel; and was later further formulated during the Medieval period.
    We wouldn't have modern inorganic chemistry without alchemy, either. Should I keep looking for the Philosopher's Stone?

  10. #120
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Because you say so?
    In the absence of concrete proof of a particular religion's correctness it will always come down to because someone says so. Not everyone is confident that the opinion of people who said so many generations ago continue to be 100% relevant and applicable to the world as it is today.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

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