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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepy View Post
    What evidence for consciousness have you seen?
    I think I can best express this through an example. I doubt it will be clear though.

    Take me imagining a giant blue square. Some people would say, the arrangement of particles and energy in my brain is causing me to speak and act like I am seeing a giant blue square.

    Now from their perspective I understand that, since they don't have my experiences of the giant blue square. But from my perspective, I am seeing a giant blue square. The giant blue square is the thing I am having direct experience of, and is the thing I can be certain, in that moment at least, that it exists. They can attempt to show me these particles and this energy, but in the end, whilst they certainly exist in some sense, I am seeing all this evidence in the same way I am seeing the giant blue square. As a conscious experience.

    So, for all this evidence people have for the existence of a material world outside our consciousness, I can only see it as more conscious experience. I then don't see how logically, using only conscious experience, one can show the existence of anything but more conscious experience.

    It seems futile to me, to try reaching outside of conscious experience, which encompasses everything we talk and think about, to talk about things outside of it.

    Baring in mind that all science and empirical investigation functions identically, and is just as practical if we remember that it is all conscious experience we manipulate. In fact, given revelations about the world in the past 100 years, it may even function better if we remember that. Especially as more people begin investigating what consciousness is through empirical research beyond everyday experiences.

    Summary: Everything I have ever witnessed is part of a conscious experience.

  2. #12
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepy View Post
    Why?
    So you will understand how awareness and consciousness are related.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
    So you will understand how awareness and consciousness are related.
    I'd prefer if you tell me.
    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I think I can best express this through an example. I doubt it will be clear though.

    Take me imagining a giant blue square. Some people would say, the arrangement of particles and energy in my brain is causing me to speak and act like I am seeing a giant blue square.

    Now from their perspective I understand that, since they don't have my experiences of the giant blue square. But from my perspective, I am seeing a giant blue square. The giant blue square is the thing I am having direct experience of, and is the thing I can be certain, in that moment at least, that it exists. They can attempt to show me these particles and this energy, but in the end, whilst they certainly exist in some sense, I am seeing all this evidence in the same way I am seeing the giant blue square. As a conscious experience.

    So, for all this evidence people have for the existence of a material world outside our consciousness, I can only see it as more conscious experience. I then don't see how logically, using only conscious experience, one can show the existence of anything but more conscious experience.

    It seems futile to me, to try reaching outside of conscious experience, which encompasses everything we talk and think about, to talk about things outside of it.

    Baring in mind that all science and empirical investigation functions identically, and is just as practical if we remember that it is all conscious experience we manipulate. In fact, given revelations about the world in the past 100 years, it may even function better if we remember that. Especially as more people begin investigating what consciousness is through empirical research beyond everyday experiences.

    Summary: Everything I have ever witnessed is part of a conscious experience.
    It's clear, at least my interpretation . And I like it. Blended with my mental model, this actually provides a realisation for truth to accept difficult internal feelings that can be challenging, but necessary to accept and embrace.

    So on a practical note for the individual your idea makes a lot of sense. To me at least.

    So what you said being of the opposite opinion might be a bit of me not expressing myself clearly. It seems to me that you described the actual experience, internal. While I explained what is, the external. From some God's perspective. So it seems they only make sense when combined.

  4. #14
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    consiousnes post death would be in the terratory of soul/after life/change of plain.....the whole do people really die issue or do they reincarnate, or do they change into spirt (not that they cant do all of the above for a time).

    I like to think of death as transitory, and that you go into aholding ground. I do beleive your conciousness.soul splits form your body and is present for a time after your death and then departs, how long, I don't know.

    Have a look at the movie What Dreams May Come, with Robin Williams, it's pretty thought provoking in some ways (beautifully shot but a slow movie)

    After my dad died I was always a bit wary when I was changing cloths that he might be watching... VERY illogical.... LOL but it was just one of those goofy things....

  5. #15
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    I don't think consciousness after death could exist in the form we perceive it, as in, our thinking selves. We can prove that our ability to think and perceive are affected by our physical state (ie. brain damage) so I think that would simply end once electrical activity in the brain ceases.

    If there's some other force that persists beyond, that would be interesting.

  6. #16
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    are neurons the only "magical" matter in the universe that can produce consciousness?
    Yes. I don't think there's a need to answer the "why" part.

    Rest assured: death is the end for consciousness. I agree with the Op, it's a horrible thought.

  7. #17
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    It begs the question of what exactly is consciousness. Religion will say it is a "soul" that happens to "inhabit" a body. Science seems to lean towards it just being the result of a chemical process. On one hand, I don't see how chemicals can create a conscious entity. On the other, it is true that our consciousness is very dependent on this biological organism. We cannot do anything without it, not receive information from the outside (through the senses), not even process information inside. Whenparts of the body die (amputation, etc), I imagine there is no sensation coming from that part of the neural roadmap anymore. (Contrary to some religious portrayals of a "soul" and/or "spirit" shaped just like the body, based on passages like Lazarus & the Rich man!)
    So once the brain dies, it seems there would be no way to receive or process information. But then what is left? If the "immortal soul" simply "takes over" then, then you wonder why it depended so exclusively on the body now.
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  8. #18
    Junior Member YaeRRoW's Avatar
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    Get back to you on that after I die.

    But seriosly I'd be horified :horor: to find out about after life. I though that life is more like "one shot one opportunity" type of a thing. And what you make of it is up to you. No justification afterwards.

  9. #19
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    It begs the question of what exactly is consciousness. Religion will say it is a "soul" that happens to "inhabit" a body. Science seems to lean towards it just being the result of a chemical process. On one hand, I don't see how chemicals can create a conscious entity. On the other, it is true that our consciousness is very dependent on this biological organism. We cannot do anything without it, not receive information from the outside (through the senses), not even process information inside. Whenparts of the body die (amputation, etc), I imagine there is no sensation coming from that part of the neural roadmap anymore. (Contrary to some religious portrayals of a "soul" and/or "spirit" shaped just like the body, based on passages like Lazarus & the Rich man!)
    So once the brain dies, it seems there would be no way to receive or process information. But then what is left? If the "immortal soul" simply "takes over" then, then you wonder why it depended so exclusively on the body now.
    Well, see, the thing is that it is possible to not have consciousness when one is alive, and it is also possible to imagine sensation when one isn't there (see phantom limb syndrome).
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  10. #20
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    OK, I read up on that, but then, that's still nerves sending signals to the brain, so it still won't tell us what we feel when the brain itself is dead.
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