is God sadistic??? Or is it just me?

[miss fortune]

this is so reminding me of a terrible argument that I had with a drinking buddy once! we argued for 3 hours about whether or not there is a god and everyone else had the sense to leave. we only quit when we ran out of booze. This thread will go on forever

 

[Ivy]

this is so reminding me of a terrible argument that I had with a drinking buddy once! we argued for 3 hours about whether or not there is a god and everyone else had the sense to leave. we only quit when we ran out of booze. This thread will go on forever

which side were you on? I promise not to argue it with you, no matter which one it is! I'm a known fence-rider anyway.

 

[sassafrassquatch]

I think he did exactly that, but not during our lifetime. So now we're forced to read obscure and debatable accounts about him written by other error-prone and biased humans who recorded some of their own interpretations of the facts. Even so, most agree on what the important facts are.

I feel like we're going in circles here.

...if christianity is true then God created humanity for a purpose. He then reveals this purpose through the bible and God's communication should be so blatantly obvious and indisputable that there should be only a single monolithic church. But that's not the case. What we see is endlessly dividing denominations each with their own twist on things. God should be able to communicate well enough that there should be no room for disagreement about what he wants.

You claim that he once clearly revealed his will to humanity but didn't bother to record it infallibly, to me this is a sign of incompetence or apathy on his part.

And just so we're clear, I believe all gods are imaginary and all religions were created by humans.

 

[cafe]

Interestingly enough I was told that this current thought of mine is nothing more than a test. A brand new trial, and I only fail at life if I give up..... Um what part of I am not feeling strong enough to continue and giving up is just more appealing at the moment, is not understood. I think or was taught to believe that God is all that and he can do it all...... so well if he is then he can erase all my bad thoughts, erase all the bad thoughts of my husbands and make my life perfect. The reality is or the message that I get is that is too easy and you wouldn't learn anything from it. Well why the hell am I not good enough just the way I am????

This conversation was not with anyone anywhere near mbti or even intp for that matter..... but still a struggle I am directing to someone who knows (apparently) better and more than myself.

Well, I don't really have answers for anyone else on the God thing and I don't know why some stuff happens that does, but I do know that I'm sorry you are going through it. You are a good person and I know that you do your best and you are loving and kind and supportive. I really hope it gets better soon.

 

[miss fortune]

which side were you on? I promise not to argue it with you, no matter which one it is! I'm a known fence-rider anyway.

I was on the "there is a God" side- I may feel a bit confused but I tend to have bad enough luck that I beleive that there must be a God, and he must hate me. I'm still trying to get myself back in good favors

maybe if I sacrificed someone...

 

[Ivy]

I was on the "there is a God" side- I may feel a bit confused but I tend to have bad enough luck that I beleive that there must be a God, and he must hate me. I'm still trying to get myself back in good favors

maybe if I sacrificed someone...

Looks like you're about to do just that, in your avatar.

As for the OP- I can't really think of anything to say that won't sound trite. I don't think this was intended to be a "argue for/against the existence of God" thread. Sounds like something sucks in your life right now, and that sucks, and I'm sorry.

I will tell you, not that I understand how you feel or anything like that, but that I was extremely angry at God when my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer, and then especially afterwards when her faith took her to some weird and dangerous places. But we all got through it, stronger and more healthy together. I'm still not sure if God exists but if it does I have a slightly better understanding of why it would allow suffering.

 

[sassafrassquatch]

this is so reminding me of a terrible argument that I had with a drinking buddy once! we argued for 3 hours about whether or not there is a god and everyone else had the sense to leave. we only quit when we ran out of booze. This thread will go on forever

I think I've argued my position quite well, but everyone keeps coming back with this homemade-cafeteria-style-build-your-own-religion form of chistianity where you can believe whatever you want and God will accept your conclusions. That sounds to me like a human created religion that is in no way divinely inspired. I find this nebulous form of liberal christianity to be impossible to debate with.

It's like this...

Me: (Argument)
Christian: We don't all believe that.
Me: (Argument two)
Christian: We don't all believe that either.
Me: Well what do you believe?
Christian: Whatever we want.

 

[ptgatsby]

Wow, this thread is lively! I wish I could do more than

But I did that in the past with less positive effects... and this is Targo's thread.

(FWIW, I believe these questions are caused by dissonance between what you know/where taught and what you experience/learn - you'll resolve it eventually. The shift can be great or small, but you'll find coherence again. )

 

[GirlAmerica]

How Can Anyone Be Certain of the Bible's Meaning?
By Gary DeLashmutt


Why is this objection so wide-spread? There are several reasons:

Portions of the Bible are difficult to understand. Paul distinguished between "milk" and "meat." Even Peter admitted this about some of the content in Paul's letters (2 Pet. 3:16). It is easy to erroneously extrapolate this to the whole Bible.

Biblical illiteracy is rampant. Most people have never read the Bible cover to cover, or even carefully read key biblical books like John or Romans. Such illiteracy makes it more difficult to refute this objection, while the objection makes it easy to excuse continued illiteracy!

Church history records ugly disagreements over the Bible's meaning. Most people are aware that churches have disagreed--sometimes seriously and even violently--over interpretation of the Bible (REFORMATION; DROWNING ANABAPTISTS; "SO MANY DENOMINATIONS;" QUASI-CHRISTIAN CULTS). To many, this links the whole idea of biblical interpretation to ugly controversy.

Relativism undermines confidence in objective meaning. Once you believe that something may be true "for you" but not true "for me," isn't it more enlightened and civilized to take this position?

How Can Anyone Be Certain of the Bible's Meaning?

 

[Ms. M]

I'm a skeptic and an atheist, I think the universe is unthinking and uncaring because that is what I see. I don't believe in God because there is no evidence that he exists. Where is the evidence for your god? Don't tell me I just have to believe or have faith, I can believe and have faith that a magic crystal will protect me from harm but that doesn't make it true unless there is testable evidence that it does.

I tend to think of faith in this way - when I close my eyes, the world around me does not disappear. When I talk to a friend on the phone and disconnect the call, that friend does not cease to exist. My mother loves me even if I can't "see" love, only physical or verbal manifestations of that emotion. Faith is trusting in what cannot be seen. Not everything in this world is subject to the scientific method.

 

[Ivy]

I tend to think of faith in this way - when I close my eyes, the world around me does not disappear. When I talk to a friend on the phone and disconnect the call, that friend does not cease to exist. My mother loves me even if I can't "see" love, only physical or verbal manifestations of that emotion. Faith is trusting in what cannot be seen. Not everything in this world is subject to the scientific method.

What was it like, talking to God on the phone?

 

[Tigerlily]

Targo, I think it's normal for a strong minded person to question the existence of God as you grow older. For me it was recently. I cannot not outright deny that there isn't a God, but I do have a more cynical view on the subject of religion. I have always considered myself to be a spiritual person and I am a big believer in Karma.

Anyway don't be too hard on yourself. I think it's a good thing that you are at least thinking about something.

I'm a known fence-rider anyway.

That's kinda hot. Has Noah seen this?

 

[CzeCze]

In response to the responders of my original response --

I agree spirituality and faith are different, I like to think I am person of both.

Faith is faith, it doesn't need you to prove its worth or existence, it can't be quantified or measured in a beaker or looked under a microscope. I'm sure you could get creative and try to express it mathematically but we both know that would be more a creative exercise in making a point than anything else.

To me faith literally means making a blind leap. It means INVESTING yourself in something that is not 100% guaranteed. But that's life. When I get on a plane I do it on faith that I'll land safely in my destination. When I get in a car likewise. Faith is a powerful thing, it changes people, it changes history, it can be manipulated, it is not selective about the things it believes, and overall it's dangerous.

I guess I personally don't feel the need to debate the existence of god with anyone. Maybe the definition, but not the existence. I don't think we're really trying to convince each other of anything, you'll believe what is right for you at this point in your life, and I'll do the same. I appreciate other POVs because I don't think it's good for anyone to get lazy in their faith and beliefs aren't static.

I would like people to feel connected with the universe and see the connections between everything which also brings with it ethical responsibility and empathy -- but I also feel people's relationship to [fill in the blank] is a very personal one.

You don't have to have the same relationship to [fill in the blank] as I do, I think people of many different sects, denominations, faiths, and belief systems do operate together under a loose umbrella of the same thing.

I honestly believe within every cynic is someone who even more loudly and more badly than me needs and wants the comfort of knowing there is something that makes sense in this world and that it is intelligent and compassionate and are basically terrified. Unless atheism is your belief system for giving rhyme and reason to the world. Believing in the absence of god is also comforting because it's finite and measurable and makes sense. Some say 'tomahhtoe' some say 'toe-may-toe' (I love saying this, perhaps spelling phonetically just tickles my toes)

And if you are true hardcore skeptic atheist cynic? You still do God's work in the good that you do. Ha! You just can't escape it! God's giving you a big hug right now as we speak!

Hahahaha, yeah I know this not what the skeptics want to hear, but I just couldn't help myself.

Personally, I have always felt like there was something more. What is "knowing"? I have always known. And that's good enough for me.

Go ahead, chalk it up to my nutty Ne and irrational ENFPness. You big hater.

P.S. Here is god giving you another hug

 

[wildcat]

In response to the responders of my original response --

I agree spirituality and faith are different, I like to think I am person of both.

Faith is faith, it doesn't need you to prove its worth or existence, it can't be quantified or measured in a beaker or looked under a microscope. I'm sure you could get creative and try to express it mathematically but we both know that would be more a creative exercise in making a point than anything else.

To me faith literally means making a blind leap. It means INVESTING yourself in something that is not 100% guaranteed. But that's life. When I get on a plane I do it on faith that I'll land safely in my destination. When I get in a car likewise. Faith is a powerful thing, it changes people, it changes history, it can be manipulated, it is not selective about the things it believes, and overall it's dangerous.

I guess I personally don't feel the need to debate the existence of god with anyone. Maybe the definition, but not the existence. I don't think we're really trying to convince each other of anything, you'll believe what is right for you at this point in your life, and I'll do the same. I appreciate other POVs because I don't think it's good for anyone to get lazy in their faith and beliefs aren't static.

I would like people to feel connected with the universe and see the connections between everything which also brings with it ethical responsibility and empathy -- but I also feel people's relationship to [fill in the blank] is a very personal one.

You don't have to have the same relationship to [fill in the blank] as I do, I think people of many different sects, denominations, faiths, and belief systems do operate together under a loose umbrella of the same thing.

I honestly believe within every cynic is someone who even more loudly and more badly than me needs and wants the comfort of knowing there is something that makes sense in this world and that it is intelligent and compassionate and are basically terrified. Unless atheism is your belief system for giving rhyme and reason to the world. Believing in the absence of god is also comforting because it's finite and measurable and makes sense. Some say 'tomahhtoe' some say 'toe-may-toe' (I love saying this, perhaps spelling phonetically just tickles my toes)

And if you are true hardcore skeptic atheist cynic? You still do God's work in the good that you do. Ha! You just can't escape it! God's giving you a big hug right now as we speak!

Hahahaha, yeah I know this not what the skeptics want to hear, but I just couldn't help myself.

Personally, I have always felt like there was something more. What is "knowing"? I have always known. And that's good enough for me.

Go ahead, chalk it up to my nutty Ne and irrational ENFPness. You big hater.

P.S. Here is god giving you another hug

Organization is man made.

Organism is self made.
Never believe in it. You do not need to.

 

[CzeCze]

Organization is man made.

Organism is self made.
Never believe in it. You do not need to.

Never believe in organization or never believe in organism?

 

[swordpath]

I tend to think of faith in this way - when I close my eyes, the world around me does not disappear. When I talk to a friend on the phone and disconnect the call, that friend does not cease to exist. My mother loves me even if I can't "see" love, only physical or verbal manifestations of that emotion. Faith is trusting in what cannot be seen. Not everything in this world is subject to the scientific method.

But the things/people that you have seen/felt/directly spoken to have given you the awareness that these things/people actually exist, therefore you can put faith in that... Why do people insist on believing in something they've never seen and have no good reason to believe in? Other than the fact that we are unable to explain our petty existence but we feel compelled to in order to make sense of our lives.

 

[GirlAmerica]

Other than the fact that we are unable to explain our petty existence but we feel compelled to in order to make sense of our lives.

Just the mere fact that you understand just how 'petty' we seem in such a vast and amazing world supports the fact that SOMETHING far greater than us exists. You are intelligent enough to know, that something this complex is no accident.

You should look into C.S. Lewis. The writer of 'The Chronicals of Narnia'. An athiest who studied God/Christianity with full intention to dispell it completely...who in-turn could not deny the information that was found and ended becoming a Christian who now writes ABOUT proof an EXISTING GOD!

 

[Tigerlily]

I like this clip from Bruce Almighty. YouTube - Favorite scene in Bruce Almighty
He then goes on to say that "God is a mean kid over an anthill with a magnifying glass, and I'm the ant. He could fix my life in five minutes if he wanted to, but he'd rather burn off my feelers, and watch me squirm!"

 

[swordpath]

Just the mere fact that you understand just how 'petty' we seem in such a vast and amazing world supports the fact that SOMETHING far greater than us exists. You are intelligent enough to know, that something this complex is no accident.

You should look into C.S. Lewis. The writer of 'The Chronicals of Narnia'. An athiest who studied God/Christianity with full intention to dispell it completely...who in-turn could not deny the information that was found and ended becoming a Christian who now writes ABOUT proof an EXISTING GOD!

I think the theory that God exists (considering that using your logic, wouldn't someone have to create God? How can God always exist if we (matter) can't?) is just as absurd as the theory that we just 'are'... Considering that both theories (if you really think about it) are just as insane and really not possible for us to fully grasp, how does it make more sense to choose to accept the belief that this omnipotent and omniscient creator that cares about us is unwilling to show himself (much less intervene and do away with the suffering and filth that he created, the traits that are supposed to be so polar opposite to what he is)?

For myself, what I can contrive in my minuscule brain is this:
A. A god/supreme being exists but he's a sadistic asshole that enjoys "games."
B. There is no God

 

[JAVO]

I feel like we're going in circles here.

Why? God did exactly what you wanted. You doubt the historical and literary evidence of this, so it becomes a question of whether that evidence is credible.

You claim that he once clearly revealed his will to humanity but didn't bother to record it infallibly, to me this is a sign of incompetence or apathy on his part.

How could he have recorded it infallibly? Any media would eventually become unreadable or deprecated. Also, keep in perspective the mindset and culture at the time. It was different than ours is now.

And just so we're clear, I believe all gods are imaginary and all religions were created by humans.

I agree that all religions were created by humans. Religion is a human response to what is percieved to be spiritual.

I'm a skeptic and an atheist, I think the universe is unthinking and uncaring because that is what I see. I don't believe in God because there is no evidence that he exists. Where is the evidence for your god? Don't tell me I just have to believe or have faith, I can believe and have faith that a magic crystal will protect me from harm but that doesn't make it true unless there is testable evidence that it does.

There is no physical or conclusive evidence for God, but there is no physical or conclusive evidence that God does not exist either. The only thing that can be proven is that it is rational to believe in the existence of God, just like it is rational to believe that he does not exist.

In the end, it comes down to a subjective decision about which "theory" fits personal observations, historical accounts, human existence and relationships, life, and reality the best.