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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    My point was never to bad mouth athiesm, but to show how poor the Carl Sagan analogy is.
    Fair enough. I agree that the scope of Sagan's analogy was rather restricted. I think he just wanted to show the utter frustration of the scientist trying to cope with something considered a truth by most of the world but which somehow has never left a scientifically verifiable trace of evidence in its wake.

    Your response that atheists simply have faulty senses or choose not to perceive God seemed too facile to me. Part of the purpose of Sagan's analogy is to make the exact opposite point--that atheists have often put in a lot of thought and effort trying to investigate this momentous claim of "a dragon in the garage." It's not our fault that the dragon doesn't leave any evidence behind.

    Lack of evidence is lack of evidence. It shouldn't be turned into an accusation that the atheist is at fault or is colorblind or isn't looking hard enough. And that's why I jumped in: To make the point that the atheist's consternation over lack of scientific evidence is genuine and that the believers have to carry some of the burden here instead of writing off the problem and blaming it on the obstinacy of atheists.

    But beyond that, I'm not looking for a win or even an argument. I'm happy to let believers continue believing. I agree that Sagan's analogy is restricted in scope and isn't very useful when it comes to disproving the existence of God. I don't think it's really about proof or disproof. I think Sagan's analogy mainly just illustrates the scientist's frustrating predicament: He is perfectly willing to keep an open mind and research the claims of believers, but the end result is always the same--he never finds a shred of hard evidence no matter how closely he investigates this claim of "a dragon in the garage."

    I appreciate the in-depth responses. All the best!

  2. #82
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO
    How could he have recorded it infallibly? Any media would eventually become unreadable or deprecated. Also, keep in perspective the mindset and culture at the time. It was different than ours is now.
    He’s the fucking Lord God ALMIGHTY isn’t he? He could poof a temple into existence, write his will in plates of gold in every language humans ever have or will speak then place his divine protection over the whole kit so it suffers nary a scratch for all eternity.
    So your argument then is this:
    1. If God exists, he would do what I expect him to do.
    2. What I expect God to do is not happening.
    3. Therefore, God does not exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    Better yet, why doesn’t he come down here in person and talk to us? Can he do that? Why does he have to make us jump through hoops?
    Have you ever read a historical account of him doing this?

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    So your argument then is this:
    1. If God exists, he would do what I expect him to do.
    2. What I expect God to do is not happening.
    3. Therefore, God does not exist.
    No, I’m saying that IF god exists he is horribly inept at whatever he is trying to do. Unless his intent is to spread confusion and divide humanity. In which case I’d say he’s done a fine job.

    Have you ever read a historical account of him doing this?
    I meant come down and stay here.


  4. #84
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    No, I’m saying that IF god exists he is horribly inept at whatever he is trying to do. Unless his intent is to spread confusion and divide humanity. In which case I’d say he’s done a fine job.
    So your argument then is this:
    1. God may exist.
    2. Evil, suffering, and confusion about God exist.
    2. Therefore, if God does exists, God is either not omnipotent or is malevolent.

    Edit: In the photo, take the blinder of religion off of the cat, and you'll resolve the fail condition.

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  6. #86
    Junior Member Alfa Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    So I have been lost to say the least. Lost in life at the moment, there was a time when I thought that I knew where I was going and what the path before me held. A time when my faith was strong and my belief cemented. But over the course of the last year I have had some questions and some doubts and there is so much that I don't understand that I feel I should understand.

    I mean is God sadistic? I'm serious.


    I look at various quotes in the Bible.

    You did not chose me I have chosen you

    I will not give you more than you can handle

    I knew you before you were born, planned you and i know your life.

    (adlibed I know)


    As I apply these to my life I feel betrayed by God. Seriously hurt and bitter and I don't trust him. Because while I have the right to choose and I chose, I chose wrong and I failed and um God knew it too yet he still allowed for me to fail. And apparently his reasoning in this is to bring us closer to him.

    Wait back um I think in my mind, you want me closer to you so you set me up for failure and you know what I am gonna do and it's not working. This baffles me, he is supposedly my heavenly father who loves me more than anything and more than I love my children, but I wouldn't set them up to fail just so they would need me more.

    Do I set a candy bar on the coffee table and tell them not to eat it and then condemn them when they eat it, No I don't set them up to fail.

    To me this theory isn't simple it's sadistic

    Am I missing something here? Apparently my life was to set me up to need God more and it's done the opposite b/c I don't trust him at all..... yet he knew this and still he allowed it......

    I believe this is immature thinking. We do not live in paradise, where everything is ideal.

    Treasure your failures, for they are the greatest gifts from which we can learn and grow. Treat them as such, and they will not cause you pain.
    "Fortune favours the bold."

  7. #87

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    A God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell -- mouths mercy, and invented hell -- mouths Golden Rules and foregiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!
    -- Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger
    Twain was the shiat!

  8. #88
    Senior Member Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    OK, my two cents for shits and giggles:

    I'm too lazy to go back and quote whoever said this, but it's grossly inaccurate to characterize atheism as "just another belief" or "just another way of dealing with [whatever]." Atheism is the proposition that God is the answer to a question that doesn't need to be asked in the first place.

    Why am I here? Because at some point my parents fucked. Not pleasant to imagine, but true. Why do they exist? Because at some point their parents fucked. Problem solved.

    Why does food taste good? Why does sex feel good? Because no one would eat if food tasted like battery acid, and there wouldn't be very many people if we weren't physically wired to seek out food and sex. So a planet populated by creatures that hate eating and fucking wouldn't make very much sense. Problem solved.

    What happens when I die? "I" ceases to be a meaningful concept. The materials that currently make up the physical gestalt indicated for convenience' sake by the shorthand "Roger Mexico" will be reclaimed by the larger physical gestalt out of which they were originally combined into such. I won't be around to see it, so I can't say as I'm too invested in the particulars. (Although if I had a say I would decidedly prefer an Irish wake to the noncommittal, atonal warbling of Scandinavian Protestants that has been the preferred method of getting me closer to God thus far in my life.) Problem solved.

    Why are some things in my life difficult? Because I suck at those things. If they're important to me, I'll work on not sucking at them. Problem solved, at least in theory.

    Why is there evil in the world? Because people invented "good,' which required an opposite adjective in order to be useful as a means of conveying information, and it turns out lots of things that happen all the time fall into the "other" category. (See Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals for more on this. Fascinating book.) "Problem of evil" solved. Actual problems involving evil? More difficult, although one should note that since "good" and "evil" are human inventions, evil will cease to exist as soon as humans do.

    How do I find peace and contentment and warm fuzzies and special unique specialness in my life?

    You know, I'm starting to think having more sex might be an important component of this process for me. Ironically, God in pretty much all of his incarnations seems to want me to hate and fear my own sexual impulses, so I can either spend a lot of money on new-agey self-help books and spend a lot of time and energy on trying to reconcile the demands of my "spiritual self" with my physical body, or I can remember that the same people who told me about God when I was little also told me about Santa Claus. It's not "problem solved," but it's definitely "problem simplified."

    I'm tired, so I'll just bow out with some Slayer lyrics:

    Drones since the dawn of time
    Compelled to live your sheltered lives
    Not once has anyone ever seen
    Such a rise of pure hypocrisy
    I will instigate, I will free your mind
    I will show you what I've known all this time

    God Hates Us All, God Hates Us All
    You know it's true, God hates this place
    You know it's true, he hates this race

    Homicide-Suicide
    Hate heals, you should try it sometime
    Strive for Peace with acts of war
    The beauty of death we all adore
    I have no faith distracting me
    I know why your prayers will never be answered

    God Hates Us All; God Hates Us All
    Yeah, He Fuckin' hates me

    Pessimist, Terrorist targeting the next mark
    Global chaos feeding on hysteria
    Cut throat, slit your wrist, shoot you in the back fair game
    Drug abuse, self abuse searching for the next high
    Sounds a lot like hell is spreading all the time
    I'm waiting for the day the whole world fucking dies

    I never said I wanted to be God's disciple
    I'll never be the one to blindly follow

    Man made virus infecting the world
    Self-destruct human time bomb
    What if there is no God would you think the fuckin' same
    Wasting your life in a leap of blind faith
    Wake the fuck up can't ignore what I say
    I got my own philosophy

    I hate everyone equally
    You can't tear that out of me
    No segregation -separation
    Just me in my world of enemies

    I never said I wanted to be God's disciple
    I'll never be the one to blindly follow
    I'll never be the one to bear the cross-disciple

    I reject this fuckin' race
    I despise this fuckin' place

  9. #89
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    ^
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    Best. post. ever.

  10. #90
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mexico View Post
    OK, my two cents for shits and giggles:

    I'm too lazy to go back and quote whoever said this, but it's grossly inaccurate to characterize atheism as "just another belief" or "just another way of dealing with [whatever]."
    Lol, that is what every belief system says about itself.
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