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  1. #41
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    this is so reminding me of a terrible argument that I had with a drinking buddy once! we argued for 3 hours about whether or not there is a god and everyone else had the sense to leave. we only quit when we ran out of booze. This thread will go on forever
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #42
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    this is so reminding me of a terrible argument that I had with a drinking buddy once! we argued for 3 hours about whether or not there is a god and everyone else had the sense to leave. we only quit when we ran out of booze. This thread will go on forever
    which side were you on? I promise not to argue it with you, no matter which one it is! I'm a known fence-rider anyway.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    I think he did exactly that, but not during our lifetime. So now we're forced to read obscure and debatable accounts about him written by other error-prone and biased humans who recorded some of their own interpretations of the facts. Even so, most agree on what the important facts are.
    I feel like we're going in circles here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    ...if christianity is true then God created humanity for a purpose. He then reveals this purpose through the bible and God's communication should be so blatantly obvious and indisputable that there should be only a single monolithic church. But that's not the case. What we see is endlessly dividing denominations each with their own twist on things. God should be able to communicate well enough that there should be no room for disagreement about what he wants.
    You claim that he once clearly revealed his will to humanity but didn't bother to record it infallibly, to me this is a sign of incompetence or apathy on his part.

    And just so we're clear, I believe all gods are imaginary and all religions were created by humans.

  4. #44
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    Interestingly enough I was told that this current thought of mine is nothing more than a test. A brand new trial, and I only fail at life if I give up..... Um what part of I am not feeling strong enough to continue and giving up is just more appealing at the moment, is not understood. I think or was taught to believe that God is all that and he can do it all...... so well if he is then he can erase all my bad thoughts, erase all the bad thoughts of my husbands and make my life perfect. The reality is or the message that I get is that is too easy and you wouldn't learn anything from it. Well why the hell am I not good enough just the way I am????

    This conversation was not with anyone anywhere near mbti or even intp for that matter..... but still a struggle I am directing to someone who knows (apparently) better and more than myself.
    Well, I don't really have answers for anyone else on the God thing and I don't know why some stuff happens that does, but I do know that I'm sorry you are going through it. You are a good person and I know that you do your best and you are loving and kind and supportive. I really hope it gets better soon.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #45
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    which side were you on? I promise not to argue it with you, no matter which one it is! I'm a known fence-rider anyway.
    I was on the "there is a God" side- I may feel a bit confused but I tend to have bad enough luck that I beleive that there must be a God, and he must hate me. I'm still trying to get myself back in good favors

    maybe if I sacrificed someone...
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #46
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I was on the "there is a God" side- I may feel a bit confused but I tend to have bad enough luck that I beleive that there must be a God, and he must hate me. I'm still trying to get myself back in good favors

    maybe if I sacrificed someone...
    Looks like you're about to do just that, in your avatar.

    As for the OP- I can't really think of anything to say that won't sound trite. I don't think this was intended to be a "argue for/against the existence of God" thread. Sounds like something sucks in your life right now, and that sucks, and I'm sorry.

    I will tell you, not that I understand how you feel or anything like that, but that I was extremely angry at God when my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer, and then especially afterwards when her faith took her to some weird and dangerous places. But we all got through it, stronger and more healthy together. I'm still not sure if God exists but if it does I have a slightly better understanding of why it would allow suffering.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    this is so reminding me of a terrible argument that I had with a drinking buddy once! we argued for 3 hours about whether or not there is a god and everyone else had the sense to leave. we only quit when we ran out of booze. This thread will go on forever
    I think I've argued my position quite well, but everyone keeps coming back with this homemade-cafeteria-style-build-your-own-religion form of chistianity where you can believe whatever you want and God will accept your conclusions. That sounds to me like a human created religion that is in no way divinely inspired. I find this nebulous form of liberal christianity to be impossible to debate with.

    It's like this...

    Me: (Argument)
    Christian: We don't all believe that.
    Me: (Argument two)
    Christian: We don't all believe that either.
    Me: Well what do you believe?
    Christian: Whatever we want.

  8. #48
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Wow, this thread is lively! I wish I could do more than

    But I did that in the past with less positive effects... and this is Targo's thread.

    (FWIW, I believe these questions are caused by dissonance between what you know/where taught and what you experience/learn - you'll resolve it eventually. The shift can be great or small, but you'll find coherence again. )

  9. #49
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    How Can Anyone Be Certain of the Bible's Meaning?
    By Gary DeLashmutt


    Why is this objection so wide-spread? There are several reasons:

    Portions of the Bible are difficult to understand. Paul distinguished between "milk" and "meat." Even Peter admitted this about some of the content in Paul's letters (2 Pet. 3:16). It is easy to erroneously extrapolate this to the whole Bible.

    Biblical illiteracy is rampant. Most people have never read the Bible cover to cover, or even carefully read key biblical books like John or Romans. Such illiteracy makes it more difficult to refute this objection, while the objection makes it easy to excuse continued illiteracy!

    Church history records ugly disagreements over the Bible's meaning. Most people are aware that churches have disagreed--sometimes seriously and even violently--over interpretation of the Bible (REFORMATION; DROWNING ANABAPTISTS; "SO MANY DENOMINATIONS;" QUASI-CHRISTIAN CULTS). To many, this links the whole idea of biblical interpretation to ugly controversy.

    Relativism undermines confidence in objective meaning. Once you believe that something may be true "for you" but not true "for me," isn't it more enlightened and civilized to take this position?



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    I'm a skeptic and an atheist, I think the universe is unthinking and uncaring because that is what I see. I don't believe in God because there is no evidence that he exists. Where is the evidence for your god? Don't tell me I just have to believe or have faith, I can believe and have faith that a magic crystal will protect me from harm but that doesn't make it true unless there is testable evidence that it does.

    I tend to think of faith in this way - when I close my eyes, the world around me does not disappear. When I talk to a friend on the phone and disconnect the call, that friend does not cease to exist. My mother loves me even if I can't "see" love, only physical or verbal manifestations of that emotion. Faith is trusting in what cannot be seen. Not everything in this world is subject to the scientific method.

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