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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBeatGoesOn View Post
    Religion has been the root of an appalling amount of suffering in the world. There is no question about that.
    Well... I'll agree with that.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    Your god is a sadist, a rapist and a mass murderer who sent a flood to kill all life save one tiny boat and ordered the ethnic cleansing of Canaan.
    Not really, I mean, I'll give you the flood and the genocide of the Canaanites, but I don't think his primary purpose in those things was the enjoyment of watching creatures suffer. I think it was a tragic side effect of a greater plan. This world is not Candyland and God is not Barney. There is good and there is evil and in a war between the two there are casualties and not always the ones that have it coming.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Just curious; but if you had to, are you capable of actually arguing alternate viewpoints / adequately representing someone else's argument to another person? Even if you didn't believe it yourself?

    Your views consistently seem about as one-sided and dogmatic as those of the Christian fundamentalists I disagree with.
    I was raised christian until I read the bible for the first time two years ago. I never went out looking to become an atheist, I only wanted to understand my beliefs. After months of reading I came to the conclusion that all theological positions are purely opinion, the bible is self contradictory and unintelligible and god does not exist.

    Though I consider the idea of any god to be absurd and impossible if I should happen to be wrong and there is a god it makes no difference. I will still hate him and I'll burn in hell just to spit in his face.

  4. #24
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    I was raised christian until I read the bible for the first time two years ago. I never went out looking to become an atheist, I only wanted to understand my beliefs. I came to the conclusion after months of reading that all theological positions are purely opinion, the bible is self contradictory and unintelligible and god does not exist.

    Though I consider the idea of any god to be absurd and impossible if I should happen to be wrong and there is a god it makes no difference. I will still hate him and I'll burn in hell just to spit in his face.
    but not all christians believe the bible is infallible. personally, i'm really iffy on how much weight i can put into text details. i really will not reconcile my opinion on homosexuality either way until i learn the original languages and read it for myself (if ever it gets reconciled).

    i have my foot in the "written by fallible humans" half of the camp, myself.

    have you ever tried to build a relationship with god? or simply follow a textbook and choose to not be damned to hell by doing x,y,z?
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    but not all christians believe the bible is infallible. personally, i'm really iffy on how much weight i can put into text details. i really will not reconcile my opinion on homosexuality either way until i learn the original languages and read it for myself (if ever it gets reconciled).

    i have my foot in the "written by fallible humans" half of the camp, myself.
    That all christians don't have the same beliefs is a mark against christianity. Is god not able to communicate clearly?

    I read into just about every theological position not just the ones I was raised with. They're all constructed from scattered "proof texts" held together with spit and wishful thinking. What does god want? He doesn't seem to care enough to tell us.

    have you ever tried to build a relationship with god? or simply follow a textbook and choose to not be damned to hell by doing x,y,z?
    Why would I want a relationship with an imaginary evil tyrant?

  6. #26
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    wow this thread has generated some popularity and I still gotta get back to it.... later yeah later....
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
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    Extroverted (E) 63.16% Intuitive (N) 60.53% Feeling (F) 84.38% Perceiving (P) 87.1% ~Your type is: ENFP

  7. #27
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Hmm...I'm not one who thinks she has had or is planning to 'have a walk with God' or that path you speak of. But, I am a spiritual person and a person of faith.

    I think if I were of an organized Christian denomination such as yourself (?) like I once was, I would say that faith is about getting tested continually, in itself there is no ultimate purpose other than to keep you on a righteous path.

    You can and should question the nature of God and good versus evil, but ultimately you need to just surrender to God and His love. You do your best and accept that there is order and reason to His plan and it's not your place to try to second guess it. If you are unable to fathom the vastness of God and the Universe, it is because of your own spiritual and intellectual and basically human limitations, because the true nature of God is unknoweable on this plane, which is exactly why you need to hold onto your faith even more.

    I'm surprised no one has brought up Job, yet.

    Does this sound cynical and like I'm twisting something? I really don't think I am. This is kinda of what I got from my own immersion in the church and from what listening to other self-described Christians.

    I don't really understand when people say, "Why does God do or allow terrible things" usually followed by, "God must not exist". If by "God" you mean compassion and love and justice, that is in YOU. I personally believe there is rhyme and reason to the universe meaning when it comes to our everyday worlds, it's all about CAUSE and EFFECT. People as individuals and humanity as a collective needs to take responsibility for the welfare of all of us, and not blame external forces like an invisible non-corporeal entity like 'God' when things go wrong.

    This does not mean I believe in 100% individual human agency and you have to 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' because your life is solely determined by you.

    God doesn't allow misery, PEOPLE do. Some people say Karma means if you are a syphillic homeless bum in this lifetime, it's because you did something to deserve it in a past life. Libertarians would say you did something to deserve it in THIS lifetime. I think yes and NO on both accounts. It means in addition to things you did (withn an environment and options that were some extent chosen for you) mostly that a great many other people mucked things up. A lot of people suffer for other people's sins (i.e. war).

    If you follow a religion that teaches compassion and righteousness (most of them) then be the change and the love in the world you wish to see. Isn't part of Christianity also the idea to be a 'vessel'? And it is a continual test on this physical plane, I'm pretty sure the bible points to that a lot too though i.e. put up and shut up and take comfort in your faith.

    I think the purpose of religion or spirituality or believing in some sort of order and rhyme and reason in the world (whether you are a militan atheist scientist or fundamentalist Christian) is ultimately to feel EMPOWERED and CONNECTED and COMFORTED and to help people help each other and ourselves. If there is suffering, look to human causes like greed and try to fix the root of the problem.

    Religion and faith do you nor anyone else any good if it incapacitates you, immobilizes you, and makes you feel disenfranchised and cynical. And I think with almost any major organized religion, you can use it to give you strength to create the world you want.

    Personally, I think there is WAYYYY too much cynicism and apathy in the world which are evil's henchmen.

    Alright, I'm getting off my tangential soap box now.



    *jump*


  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Hmm...I'm not one who thinks she has had or is planning to 'have a walk with God' or that path you speak of. But, I am a spiritual person and a person of faith.
    Spirituality = Warm fuzzy feelings. Faith = Believing something is true because you want it to be.

    I think if I were of an organized Christian denomination such as yourself (?) like I once was, I would say that faith is about getting tested continually, in itself there is no ultimate purpose other than to keep you on a righteous path.

    You can and should question the nature of God and good versus evil, but ultimately you need to just surrender to God and His love. You do your best and accept that there is order and reason to His plan and it's not your place to try to second guess it. If you are unable to fathom the vastness of God and the Universe, it is because of your own spiritual and intellectual and basically human limitations, because the true nature of God is unknowable on this plane, which is exactly why you need to hold onto your faith even more.

    I'm surprised no one has brought up Job, yet.
    God allowed Satan to kill Job's family in that story. Yeah, Job had everything restored and more in the end but what about the people who were murdered just so God could see how much his toy loved him?

    Does this sound cynical and like I'm twisting something? I really don't think I am. This is kinda of what I got from my own immersion in the church and from what listening to other self-described Christians.

    I don't really understand when people say, "Why does God do or allow terrible things" usually followed by, "God must not exist".
    For me "God is evil" and "God does not exist" are independent of each other.

    1. All proposed gods allow suffering. Therefore all gods are evil.
    2. The concept of god(s)(ess)(es) are illogical, absurd and unfalsifiable. Therefore god(s)(ess)(es) do not exist pending testable evidence.

    If any god(s)(ess)(es) should reveal him/her/it/their self to me I will accept his/her/its/their existence. However they will still be evil since suffering exists.

    If by "God" you mean compassion and love and justice, that is in YOU. I personally believe there is rhyme and reason to the universe meaning when it comes to our everyday worlds, it's all about CAUSE and EFFECT. People as individuals and humanity as a collective needs to take responsibility for the welfare of all of us, and not blame external forces like an invisible non-corporeal entity like 'God' when things go wrong.

    This does not mean I believe in 100% individual human agency and you have to 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' because your life is solely determined by you.

    God doesn't allow misery, PEOPLE do.
    Why does he allow people to allow misery? My question still stands: Why does whatever god you believe in allow suffering to exist in the first place? Why did he create a universe where suffering is even possible?

    Some people say Karma means if you are a syphillic homeless bum in this lifetime, it's because you did something to deserve it in a past life. Libertarians would say you did something to deserve it in THIS lifetime. I think yes and NO on both accounts. It means in addition to things you did (withn an environment and options that were some extent chosen for you) mostly that a great many other people mucked things up. A lot of people suffer for other people's sins (i.e. war).

    If you follow a religion that teaches compassion and righteousness (most of them) then be the change and the love in the world you wish to see. Isn't part of Christianity also the idea to be a 'vessel'? And it is a continual test on this physical plane, I'm pretty sure the bible points to that a lot too though i.e. put up and shut up and take comfort in your faith.

    I think the purpose of religion or spirituality or believing in some sort of order and rhyme and reason in the world (whether you are a militan atheist scientist or fundamentalist Christian) is ultimately to feel EMPOWERED and CONNECTED and COMFORTED and to help people help each other and ourselves. If there is suffering, look to human causes like greed and try to fix the root of the problem.
    Hiding under a blanket of wishful thinking with your invisible friend is no way to go through life. Better to accept that the universe doesn't give a shit about you, prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

    Religion and faith do you nor anyone else any good if it incapacitates you, immobilizes you, and makes you feel disenfranchised and cynical. And I think with almost any major organized religion, you can use it to give you strength to create the world you want.

    Personally, I think there is WAYYYY too much cynicism and apathy in the world which are evil's henchmen.
    That I can agree with.

  9. #29
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    That all christians don't have the same beliefs is a mark against christianity.
    I disagree. I think that is one of the benefits. We have the freedom to think for ourselves. We don't have to simply follow as we are told. Uniformity seems like a disadvantage. Who wants to be a part of something where everyone thinks the same way? Freedom is preferable to uniformity, IMHO.
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  10. #30
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    I tend to consider any descriptions of "god's plan", "what god wants", etc. to be bullshit (In this case the swearing is deserved), because people seem to have a tendency to selectively pick which things were "god caused" vs. "human caused", and there are varying views on what "god's plan is", all without actual information from any god-like beings that may or may not exist over what really is going on. In a lot of cases, such viewpoints from people seem to be personally motivated rather than random, as would be expected from someone who just happened to guess what was going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    You can and should question the nature of God and good versus evil, but ultimately you need to just surrender to God and His love. You do your best and accept that there is order and reason to His plan and it's not your place to try to second guess it.
    This is a no can do right here. It's asking for a huge amount of trust for an extremely small amount to none at all evidence of what is going on, why it is going on, etc.

    The descriptions that "It is too big to fathom because of human limitations" also doesn't work, since even if the whole picture is somehow too complex, it makes no sense that a part of the picture wouldn't be shown to the people who are interested in knowing or need to know, and is quite insulting that people are expected to hand over all sorts of energy, trust, loyalty, etc., for a bunch of wispy promises, no explanation for why things are done a certain way, and no results or anything else to show for what was given.

    Not really, I mean, I'll give you the flood and the genocide of the Canaanites, but I don't think his primary purpose in those things was the enjoyment of watching creatures suffer. I think it was a tragic side effect of a greater plan. This world is not Candyland and God is not Barney. There is good and there is evil and in a war between the two there are casualties and not always the ones that have it coming.
    And as usual, there is no explanation for what this plan is, what the purpose of it is, and why things have to be done that particular way. In the supposed "battle of good vs. evil", We don't see just what this "evil" is supposed to be doing that makes it so evil, and why certain things are supposed to lead to it getting more power.

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