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  1. #191
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    Some of those people go to church because it's important to their families, and the holiday season is a time for many families to participate in events together. Perhaps instead of wanting to tell "those people" to fuck off, you might consider appreciating their efforts at harmony, especially considering that it's extremely uncomfortable and frustrating to sit through an entire service with which you disagree.
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  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by metaphours View Post
    i couldnt agree with you more. everytime i go to church on like easter or christmas you always see these people who show up but have never gone to church once in their lives and i just wanna be like -__- fuck off. hahahah
    Maybe they don't have time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jewelchild View Post
    Some of those people go to church because it's important to their families, and the holiday season is a time for many families to participate in events together. Perhaps instead of wanting to tell "those people" to fuck off, you might consider appreciating their efforts at harmony, especially considering that it's extremely uncomfortable and frustrating to sit through an entire service with which you disagree.
    Yeah. I think people should decide themselves whether to go there or not. I just despise those hypocritical people who persuade others of being a bad person if they don't go to church.

  3. #193
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    If there is a God, then I think he's misguided rather than sadistic. In other words, I think he believes that he's perfect/infinite, creates perfectly, and that there's nothing beyond him and his creation, when this is not true.

    Basically, I don't believe in the Christian conception of God more than any other conception of deity, but the conception I have of the Christian God is that he's basically closer to being something like the Demiurge, if he exists at all. Much like humans, he strives for perfection, but he doesn't possess it (which could have something to do with the "created in his image" thing). I believe it's possible that he has such a vivid imagination that, having envisioned the idea of perfection, he believes he possesses it, and doesn't consciously realize the difference between striving and realization. Thus he is unknowingly hypocritical in his expectations (though he realized and tried to correct some of this later on by sending Jesus).

    I would actually type this Demiurge as INTJ. So he's not sadistic. Just insensitive. He claims to be compassionate because he understands the goodness of compassion, but he doesn't realize that his actions are not always so, simply because he wills them to be so. Again, this because he's not aware of that which is higher than himself.

    Basically, God has a problem that is very common among INJs. He has a lot of trouble learning from his experiences, and believes that everything which is perfect in theory can easily be made perfect in practice. I don't worship him, but I do sympathize with him. I know how frustrating it is when I have this vision of something that seems perfect in my mind, and yet when I try to fashion it, the creation always falls short of what's in my head.

    One more point... I don't believe that someone who already possessed perfection would be able to create anything that was imperfect. Even if you don't count man, Satan and the fallen angels were another imperfect creation. So as far as we can tell, God hasn't managed to create any perfect lifeforms that possess consciousness. He may be very good at creating objects and universes, but struggles with understanding and creating sentience.

    Yeah, I know that sounds crazy, but that's the kind of thing I come up with when contemplating religion.

  4. #194
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    If god is all knowing, all powerful and everywhere.

    Then he is both good and evil. And thus a creator of choice and freedom. And thus both sadistic, and not sadistic.

    It's really just how you look at it.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  5. #195
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    If god is all knowing, all powerful and everywhere.

    Then he is both good and evil. And thus a creator of choice and freedom. And thus both sadistic, and not sadistic.

    It's really just how you look at it.
    Hmm... I'd actually say this might be a good representation of him, then:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjhc7KdlMmI&feature=related"]God/Infinity?[/YOUTUBE]

  6. #196
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yeah, I know that sounds crazy, but that's the kind of thing I come up with when contemplating religion.
    Greek Dualism isn't crazy; it's false. Believing it would be crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    One more point... I don't believe that someone who already possessed perfection would be able to create anything that was imperfect.
    What do you mean by this?

  7. #197
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Greek Dualism isn't crazy; it's false. Believing it would be crazy.
    What is Greek dualism, and what does it have to with what I was talking about?

    What do you mean by this?
    I can't explain it if it isn't apparent. There are those who understand what I'm implying, and those who don't. Clearly you fall into the latter group.

    I'll try, though... umm...

    It seems to me that perfection means that you can create perfectly as well. It seems that God only has the ability to create inanimate things perfectly, because he doesn't fully understand will and sentience. He may only be in the process of becoming perfect, rather than already being perfect, in other words.

    This is just a random theory I have about the nature of God, though... I'm not sure if there is a God, or that God has a nature, but that doesn't stop me from speculating, "What if?"

  8. #198
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    What is Greek dualism, and what does it have to with what I was talking about?
    Dualism is the metaphysical position that states that both matter and spirit, (or both extended and non-extended substance), exist and are eternal.

    Greek Dualism, the best known and most thoroughly worked out forms of Dualism, comes in two flavors: independent (Plato), and dependent (Aristotle). At the moment, you're dipping into Platonic Dualism, particularly the form associated with Homeric wisdom, i.e., the Demiurge is working with imperfect materials, but his shaping material to fit the forms, (and the highest form of the good), is improved over time.

    What you're saying isn't crazy; as a worldview, this form of thought has been developed to a high degree of consistency, and has been incredibly influential in the history of Western Civilization. (And, oddly enough, its been influential because it's been adopted by Christians.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I can't explain it if it isn't apparent. There are those who understand what I'm implying, and those who don't. Clearly you fall into the latter group.

    I'll try, though... umm...

    It seems to me that perfection means that you can create perfectly as well. It seems that God only has the ability to create inanimate things perfectly, because he doesn't fully understand will and sentience. He may only be in the process of becoming perfect, rather than already being perfect, in other words.

    This is just a random theory I have about the nature of God, though... I'm not sure if there is a God, or that God has a nature, but that doesn't stop me from speculating, "What if?"
    I asked what you meant not because I didn't understand what you meant at all, but because there were many ways to interpret your statement, and I didn't want to accuse you of holding to something that you don't hold to, and address a straw man instead of your actual belief.

    Here, you diverge from the traditional, or main line of Platonic thought, and assign the imperfection in existence not to matter, but to the ignorance of the demiruge. This is still consistent with the Homeric version which, as far as I know, doesn't say whether remaining imperfection is due to the demiurge learning how to work with his materials, (which is what you seem to be holding to here), or whether remaining imperfection is due to recalcitrant matter being refined/made more amenable to taking on the form of the good over time.

    At this point, I would ask you to consider some of the implications of eternal existence, and whether an eternal being can grow in knowledge.

    I'm glad you're asking "what if", and I encourage you to continue to do so, as I believe that the highest good for man comes through the use of reason to understand the nature of the the real. To this end, I'm responding to encourage you to continue to become more conscious and consistent in your thought, thereby helping you to come to greater understanding--which is good for you.

  9. #199
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Dualism is the metaphysical position that states that both matter and spirit, (or both extended and non-extended substance), exist and are eternal.

    Greek Dualism, the best known and most thoroughly worked out forms of Dualism, comes in two flavors: independent (Plato), and dependent (Aristotle). At the moment, you're dipping into Platonic Dualism, particularly the form associated with Homeric wisdom, i.e., the Demiurge is working with imperfect materials, but his shaping material to fit the forms, (and the highest form of the good), is improved over time.

    What you're saying isn't crazy; as a worldview, this form of thought has been developed to a high degree of consistency, and has been incredibly influential in the history of Western Civilization. (And, oddly enough, its been influential because it's been adopted by Christians.)
    Yes, that does make sense, actually. It's an interesting way of looking at the world. Plato is one of my favorite philosophers.

    Here, you diverge from the traditional, or main line of Platonic thought, and assign the imperfection in existence not to matter, but to the ignorance of the demiruge. This is still consistent with the Homeric version which, as far as I know, doesn't say whether remaining imperfection is due to the demiurge learning how to work with his materials, (which is what you seem to be holding to here), or whether remaining imperfection is due to recalcitrant matter being refined/made more amenable to taking on the form of the good over time.
    Yes, this also seems accurate.
    At this point, I would ask you to consider some of the implications of eternal existence, and whether an eternal being can grow in knowledge.
    Two things:

    1. We aren't in a position to judge whether God is truly eternal/infinite/complete, or whether he only BELIEVES that he is because he is somehow unaware of anything higher than himself (or even isn't able to express whatever it is that's higher to us in a way we can understand, so decides we should consider him infinite for our purposes/understanding). We know that he is higher than us, and that he may exist in a way that is beyond what we can comprehend, and hence be perfect relative to our reality because he's above and outside of it, and can mold it to his will, but that doesn't mean he's absolutely perfect in a way that transcends all realities.

    2. It seems to me that they can grow in knowledge, but not the kind of knowledge we have. For us, knowledge is true or false, the nature of a metaphor or a texture. God may already have all possible knowledge associated with that, and have finished learning whatever it is we're learning now, but may still be in the process of perfecting and learning something beyond our comprehension. There was something he sought to learn or express when he created the universe, because that's what the act of creation is... a self-expression, an attempt to facilitate a process, or both. It seems to me that there is no contradiction between the idea of God continuing to learn in a way that is beyond our comprehension by creating universes and observing them, yet being omniscient relative to the meaning/nature of the specific goings on in any given universe he creates.

    At this point, I'm really pushing the envelope of language, and my own mind... this is probably far beyond anything that humans are meant to deal with at this point.

    I'm glad you're asking "what if", and I encourage you to continue to do so, as I believe that the highest good for man comes through the use of reason to understand the nature of the the real. To this end, I'm responding to encourage you to continue to become more conscious and consistent in your thought, thereby helping you to come to greater understanding--which is good for you.
    Thanks. I will keep asking that question... it's my favorite question at ask.

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