INTP and hating religion.

[Ginkgo]

Have you considered the possibility that they are ignorant by choice?

Ignorance stems from a contradiction of thoughts. If belief a. does not align with belief b. and c., then a. may be ignored. We all do this to maintain a harmonic world-view.

If belief a. contradicts b-z, when why would one go through the trouble of dismembering b-z in favor of a?

 

[Ginkgo]

no, see, i dont believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior, or how ever you want to put it. so for this simple fact, a belief, I am supposed to go to hell and suffer forever? For what? A belief. And you, you pick the right god so you get to go to heaven and all the rest of us go to hell.

I can't see how I'm either supposed to like that or accept it.




sports dont drive people apart quite the same way religion does......

You could make an argument for how nationalism or money or power or any material element could provoke rivalries, wars, or genocide in a populace of people. One does not need to look any further back in history than the present to observe this. The world is burning.

 

[Robert165]

You could make an argument for how nationalism or money or power or any material element could provoke rivalries, wars, or genocide in a populace of people. One does not need to look any further back in history than the present to observe this. The world is burning.

so you're going to defend religion by comparing it to other corrosive forces.... ?

 

[Owl]

but the point is you don't. how come the only way you can defend yourself is by talking about silly hypotheticals you don't even believe in????

Do you "really really really want to believe the moon is made of green cheese"? That is a silly hypothetical you don't believe, but you used it to try to show that you conform your beliefs to "the facts;" therefore, you can't want to believe that the moon is made of green cheese because, presumably, it isn't factual. Then, you said you couldn't make yourself believe that a $10 fine is an acceptable punishment for rape or murder, presumably, because factually it isn't an acceptable consequence.

My point is this: everyone wants to believe what is factual, and everyone believes that his beliefs are factual. I'm trying to get you to question how we come to know the facts.

What reason have you given me to abandon my position? Your conscience tells you that some of the doctrines of Christianity, (which you think you understand but are actually straw-men), are wrong. Should I take your conscience to be the ultimate authority on both Christian doctrine and the nature of the universe?

 

[Robert165]

What reason have you given me to abandon my position? Your conscience tells you that some of the doctrines of Christianity, (which you think you understand but are actually straw-men), are wrong. Should I take your conscience to be the ultimate authority on both Christian doctrine and the nature of the universe?

I havent created a straw man
I've just pointed out what the bible says

 

[Ginkgo]

so you're going to defend religion by comparing it to other corrosive forces.... ?

Oh, no. I do not believe my religion is corrosive. However, some of those who practice it may be corrosive. This is the folly of being a Christian who attempts to walk in the shoes of Christ. Perhaps it is the folly of an institution that uses religion with ignorance or for immoral benefit. People are imperfect.

 

[Robert165]

Oh, no. I do not believe my religion is corrosive. However, some of those who practice it may be corrosive. This is the folly of being a Christian who attempts to walk in the shoes of Christ. Perhaps it is the folly of an institution that uses religion with ignorance or for immoral benefit. People are imperfect.

no. christianity seperates the world into 2 groups. christians and non christians. please don't even try to argue that doesnt divide people.

 

[Ginkgo]

no. christianity seperates the world into 2 groups. christians and non christians. please don't even try to argue that doesnt divide people.

Sure, it divides people. Is division somehow unethical? Division manifests itself from differences among people. People are as individual as snow-flakes. We're all divided and simultaneously connected by being human. When we forget that the others are human - distinct from the animal or inanimate - we may find ethical fault. The Bible supports this notion through selflessness.

 

[Robert165]

Sure, it divides people. Is division somehow unethical? Division manifests itself from differences among people. People are as individual as snow-flakes. We're all divided and simultaneously connected by being human. When we forget that the others are human - distinct from the animal or inanimate - we may find ethical fault. The Bible supports this notion through selflessness.

the bible may promote selflessness
it also promotes division
not difference
but division

 

[Owl]

I havent created a straw man
I've just pointed out what the bible says

And Moby Dick is only a whale.

 

[Ginkgo]

the bible may promote selflessness
it also promotes division
not difference
but division

So does 3rth grade mathematics.

 

[Haphazard]

Have you considered the possibility that they are ignorant by choice?

I don't see how an Incan in the year 196 AD who didn't even know Rome or the Mediterranean or anything even existed could be to blame if he didn't know about Jesus' good word.

 

[Owl]

I don't see how an Incan in the year 196 AD who didn't even know Rome or the Mediterranean or anything even existed could be to blame if he didn't know about Jesus' good word.

At the moment, we needn't even speak of Jesus, as this question concerns a more general principle.

What father when his child asks for a loaf of bread hands him a snake? If we who are finite and changeable in our goodness know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more will God give good gifts to those who ask?

 

[Feops]

I would think that INTPs would see the world as a sort of puzzle, of which we've already been provided all the clues, but claiming to know the answer without a proper proof would seem to be cheating.

I don't think this perspective is limited to INTPs of course, just more common to their type.

 

[milkyway2]

You know what I hate? Meaningless sentences and cliches. Christians use them all the time and they don't mean anything.

If you can't break your sentence down and explain exactly what it all means and how it makes sense what is the point of saying it

 

[ajblaise]

You know what I hate? Meaningless sentences and cliches. Christians use them all the time and they don't mean anything.

If you can't break your sentence down and explain exactly what it all means and how it makes sense what is the point of saying it

Yeah, thought-terminating cliches are great.

"God works in mysterious ways" has to be my favorite. If your religion stops making sense, or your beliefs start to contradict each other, it comes in handy.

 

[Owl]

Ignorance stems from a contradiction of thoughts. If belief a. does not align with belief b. and c., then a. may be ignored. We all do this to maintain a harmonic world-view.

What's up Tater? (I didn't see this post until now.)

Ignorance needn't stem from only a contradiction of thoughts. You could be ignorant of some thing because you failed to think of the thing, because you aren't acquainted with the thing, or because you've never experience that thing. (there are probably other ways you could be ignorant, but these three leap to mind.)

If belief a. contradicts b-z, when why would one go through the trouble of dismembering b-z in favor of a?

You already answered this: to maintain a harmonious worldview; to maintain a consistent worldview; to grow in knowledge; etc.

You know what I hate? Meaningless sentences and cliches. Christians use them all the time and they don't mean anything.

If you can't break your sentence down and explain exactly what it all means and how it makes sense what is the point of saying it

If you've some insight into what meaning is and how captured and conveyed in language, we could use your help. We are, quite literally, dying for lack of meaning. Perhaps you should publish.

Is it because I am an INTP that I hate religion?

...

Because I have a strong T and not very much F I just sit there analyzing and asking questions in my head about everything and coming to conclusions about how stupid everything is. Maybe if I could just... get into the feel of church I would like it? If I just stopped thinking. Because when I do that, I do feel something. Like a sense of reverence or respect or tradition. But I don't really like that feeling. And I can't just...stay in the feeling.. I always begin to think too much and I forget about it. I also don't care about feelings.

You should absolutely not stop thinking. The church has been running on the hard earned intellectual capital of her forebears, but she's not been replenishing the coffers. How many "Great Revivals" have there been in the U.S. now? Three for sure. I think we're supposed to be in the middle of the fourth. It's all emotionally driven: it's completely, intellectually bankrupt.

Contemporary Christians have abandoned the examined life, and, as a result, contemporary Christianity cannot be distinguished from contemporary Mammon and Ashera worship; we're not losing the culture war: we've lost the culture war. 75% of Americans claim to be Christian, but you wouldn't be able to tell by the way Americans behave. Oh, we like to fool ourselves by getting upset, getting emotional, when the 10 commandments are removed from a courtroom, but only 14% can name all ten commandments. What a farce. Instead of getting emotional, maybe we could we could stop and think about why those commandments are important so that we could give a rational defense of the law of God. Alas, to do that, one would first have to think about the law of God, but Christians have a severe allergic reaction to thought. phh... they're not even willing to give it enough thought to commit 10 sentences to memory. Frauds.

Tater's signature is apt: "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death". - MLK Jr.

"For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" (2 Cor 10:4-5, ESV).

I would think that INTPs would see the world as a sort of puzzle, of which we've already been provided all the clues, but claiming to know the answer without a proper proof would seem to be cheating.

I don't think this perspective is limited to INTPs of course, just more common to their type.

OK. I think we're back on topic. (Finally).

Milkyway's post, quoted above, is a perfect example of Ti frustration with Christianity in particular and popular level thought in general. Ti wants to break a system down to its fundamental components and subject them to rational analysis in order to discover their essence, what makes them distinct from the other components in the system. Ne wants to discover how those components are related. (Thank you Teslashock). Contemporary Christians just want faith. This is a bad combo. You're not supposed to understand God! You're trying to rely on head-knowledge. Christianity is about heart-knowledge: you have to feeeeeel it. God's ways are too high for us to understand. He's beyond human reason.

If God is beyond human reason, then what is the object of worship...?

 

[Haphazard]

At the moment, we needn't even speak of Jesus, as this question concerns a more general principle.

What father when his child asks for a loaf of bread hands him a snake? If we who are finite and changeable in our goodness know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more will God give good gifts to those who ask?

I remember something that went something like this:

"Christian" and "Athiest" are terms that only intellectualize the problem, and faith is something that cannot be intellectualized. Just because someone intellectually "believes" doesn't mean that they really do. As many have said in this thread, "if Christians are right, then Atheists have a lot more to lose" is an argument to accept God out of fear. Assuming one would rather not fear than fear, this fear is actually rejection. As in, the labels of "Christian" and "Atheist" are rather useless because they don't really show what one would do in the face of God necessarily unless He had revealed himself to these people and had turned them one way or the other: "you never know what people are capable of until they're put in hot water," "there are no atheists in foxholes," etc.

A.K.A, one is not "lost" if one is not a Christian in a Christian land. Unlike with most, God will not blame you for your crappy education, and pure lip service will get you nowhere.

 

[Lark]

You know what I hate? Meaningless sentences and cliches. Christians use them all the time and they don't mean anything.

If you can't break your sentence down and explain exactly what it all means and how it makes sense what is the point of saying it

*Wow thar Nelly!!*

That's a bit of a gross generalisation dont you think? There are some people who do use obscure language, they think makes them seem intelligent or to possess especial knowledge that others dont, its in no way restricted to either Christians or religion per se.

To some people the typology of this forum is an obscure, esoteric and indescypherable jargon, now that could be in part true to the uninitiated/unfamiliar but if you read a little you'll be able to figure it out.

In principle I agree though, anything that can be said can be said clearly.

 

[Lark]

Yeah, thought-terminating cliches are great.

"God works in mysterious ways" has to be my favorite. If your religion stops making sense, or your beliefs start to contradict each other, it comes in handy.

Er, what?

God works in mysterious ways makes perfect sense to me I'm afraid, what's wrong with that? Its simply saying that we shouldnt project our own or human motives and designs on to something which isnt human, if we could understand it it wouldnt be mysterious.