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INTP and hating religion.

Robert165

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? You earlier attributed part of the Bible to Paul. Was I supposed to disagree?
it would be hard to reconcile a bunch of books written in different langauges across thousands of years --- if --- the books were written by men
no, i'm saying the bible is in fact nothing more than a collected work wrttien, entirley, by men. it has no more signifigance or validity than any other text.
 

Scott

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9/5?
do you have any objective standars when interpreting the bible, or is it all about what you feel/think. if you have objective standards, what are they?

I think you missed my point...

What do you mean by "objective standards"? What would an example be?

(also, I need to eat dinner... but I'll be back around later to continue the discussion I'm sure :D )
 

Robert165

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I think you missed my point...

What do you mean by "objective standards"? What would an example be?

(also, I need to eat dinner... but I'll be back around later to continue the discussion I'm sure :D )
here are my objective standards, to religion
1- it has to make logical sense
2- it has to be compassinate
 

cafe

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Robert, you really need to look into studying some Biblical hermeneutics if you plan on having any kind of intelligent discussion on Christianity. You also might want to consider learning about how different branches of Christianity come up with their beliefs and what those beliefs actually are.

You seem only to be familiar with Evangelical/Fundamentalist Protestant Christian ideas and are so emotionally invested in your own arguments that you can't discuss things very rationally. If you want a serious debate you've got to tone it down enough for some real give and take.
 

Robert165

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Robert, you really need to look into studying some Biblical hermeneutics if you plan on having any kind of intelligent discussion on Christianity. You also might want to consider learning about how different branches of Christianity come up with their beliefs and what those beliefs actually are.

You seem only to be familiar with Evangelical/Fundamentalist Protestant Christian ideas and are so emotionally invested in your own arguments that you can't discuss things very rationally. If you want a serious debate you've got to tone it down enough for some real give and take.
the evangeicals are the only ones who actually follow the bible. why should i care about a bunch of people who have enough sense to see the bible is false but dont have enough courage to denounce it. really, why should i care about their POV at all. all i would be doing is listiening to excuses.
 

Robert165

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^was Moby Dick only a whale?
ah, good point. you've got college professors, people who went to school at duke, harvard or yale, and they are going ot disagree, at some point, about passages in Moby Dick. So if you are presenting a book to less intellignet people, i think you'd want as little ambiguity as possible.
 

Owl

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"All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them" (WCF 1.7).
 

Robert165

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"All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them" (WCF 1.7).
no. if something is neccesary for salvation, and you are going to apply fair standards, it must be easy to understand. there are more problems with that quote though. one can argue wether hell really has flames or wether thats just imagrey, but, there is no way to argue that hell is anything but a really, really, really bad place. not if you read the bible.

salvation in the bible is pretty clear. not in laungauge, but in contenet. you've got to beleive in, and accept, jesus.

thats not the least bit complicated. difficult to agree with, but not at all hard to understand.
 

Haphazard

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How did this go?

A missionary went to a foreign land that had never heard of Christianity before. He introduced Christianity to the natives and said that if they didn't accept God and Jesus that they would go to Hell.

The natives asked if they would have gone to Hell if the missionary had not come to their land and told them this. The missionary said no because God is a just and loving God and would not punish any of His children for simple ignorance.

The natives then asked, "Well, then WHY did you tell us?!"
 

Owl

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no. if something is neccesary for salvation, and you are going to apply fair standards, it must be easy to understand. there are more problems with that quote though. one can argue wether hell really has flames or wether thats just imagrey, but, there is no way to argue that hell is anything but a really, really, really bad place. not if you read the bible.

salvation in the bible is pretty clear. not in laungauge, but in contenet. you've got to beleive in, and accept, jesus.

thats not the least bit complicated. difficult to agree with, but not at all hard to understand.

Our understanding of the precise nature of hell isn't tested in this life; nevertheless, I think everyone here agrees that anyone who seriously reads the bible will say that it's portrayed as a really, really, bad place.

But, were there a hell, would everyone there recognize it as a really, really bad place? Is it possible to be in hell, yet not recognize that you are in hell?
 

Owl

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How did this go?

A missionary went to a foreign land that had never heard of Christianity before. He introduced Christianity to the natives and said that if they didn't accept God and Jesus that they would go to Hell.

The natives asked if they would have gone to Hell if the missionary had not come to their land and told them this. The missionary said no because God is a just and loving God and would not punish any of His children for simple ignorance.

The natives then asked, "Well, then WHY did you tell us?!"

This makes me wonder why we don't abort more babies.

Edit: and euthanize the retarded.
 

Robert165

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Our understanding of the precise nature of hell isn't tested in this life; nevertheless, I think everyone here agrees that anyone who seriously reads the bible will say that it's portrayed as a really, really, bad place.
this life is the only place to understand it. punishing someone, forever, for what they do, or choose, in this life, is unfair. end of story.

But, were there a hell, would everyone there recognize it as a really, really bad place? Is it possible to be in hell, yet not recognize that you are in hell?
i'd say if it were really that bad you would know.
 

Robert165

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How did this go?

A missionary went to a foreign land that had never heard of Christianity before. He introduced Christianity to the natives and said that if they didn't accept God and Jesus that they would go to Hell.

The natives asked if they would have gone to Hell if the missionary had not come to their land and told them this. The missionary said no because God is a just and loving God and would not punish any of His children for simple ignorance.

The natives then asked, "Well, then WHY did you tell us?!"
yeah, good way of definng the problem, except that some missionaries believe all people go to hell if they don't accept christ, even those that never heard of him. the phrase "god will not send anyone to hell that has not heard of him" is no where in the bible, not in those exact terms, nor stated in any other.
 

Owl

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this life is the only place to understand it. punishing someone, forever, for what they do, or choose, in this life, is unfair. end of story.

The torments of hell are self-inflicted. The only consequence God inflicts is letting us go, and this happens only once.

i'd say if it were really that bad you would know.

One can know only what is true, and one needn't be concerned with truth. People willingly embrace lies all the time. Why, if one were in hell, should he not embrace a lie so that he could believe his situation to be better than it actually is?

Edit: had to move the "only" from before "know" to "what."
 

Robert165

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The torments of hell are self-inflicted. The only consequence God inflicts is letting us go, and this happens only once.
no, actualy they are not. however, it may make it easier for you to tell yourself that.



One can only know what is true, and one needn't be concerned with truth. People willingly embrace lies all the time. Why, if one were in hell, should he not embrace a lie so that he could believe his situation to be better than it actually is?
some people may embrace lies. but rejecting the christian god on a moral basis has nothing to do with embracing a lie. in fact, the opposite. it means you have a concince.
 

Robert165

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You're free to do the second if you want to.

no, you're not. i may really really really want to beleive the moon is made out of cheese, but becasue i have actually seen a picture of a moon rock, i am forced to believe it is in fact, made out of moonrock. i can't force myself to beleive the moon is made out of cheese when i know for a fact it isin't.

nor could i force myself to believe a $10 fine was an acceptable punishment for raping or killing someone. no matter how much i would want to believe that, i could never believe that.
 
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