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INTP and hating religion.

Lark

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ok, none of that makes treating the bible as truth in a selctive manner any more acceptable

Unsure what point you're trying to make here, you asked if the bible was the sole authority of Christian theology.

No its not.
 

Robert165

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ENFJ
Hell is the afterlife equivalent of misanthropy or an anti-social personality disorder, it is not the work of a punitive, capricious or vengeful God, although it is depicted that way, either as a consequence of anthropomorphism or hostility.

No, the inmates of hell hold the keys and the locks are on their side of the doors, they dont want to be with God, they have rejected God, as a consequence of pride, hate, any number of other evil motives.

As a result its not a terrible concept, its not the gulag.
so if they have the keys they can leave any time they want, right?
 

Robert165

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Unsure what point you're trying to make here, you asked if the bible was the sole authority of Christian theology.

No its not.
the bible is either:

1- written in total by god, and should be followed 100%
2- written by man and has no more relevance than any other book
3- written partly by man and partly by god and should be viewed
very supiciously, since you can't tell which part is which
 

Scott

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97
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9/5?
ok, none of that makes treating the bible as truth in a selctive manner any more acceptable

I'm not treating the Bible in a selective manner. I am treating it as though it's not necessarily the case that every word and piece of advice given is meant to be taken either as a direct command from God or a tenet to believe.
 

Lark

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That doesn't bother me. In most people's minds, Hell is reserved for the worst; murderers, rapists, and such. The "If you don't accept Jesus you go to Hell" thing actually conflicts with a lot of Christian's interpretations about Hell.

Hell is reserved for those who reject God and carry on doing so, its not the ultimate reprimand and punishment.

Personally when it comes to reprehensible sorts like rapists I recall that the bible and tradition indicate that God is just and that not only will be see justice done but it will be seen to be done too, any and all victims will receive satisfaction.

As an RC I understand this to involve purgatory and its purgative and purifying process, personally I think it can start in life, people can be afflicted in this life or experience it all in the afterlife.
 

Lark

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so if they have the keys they can leave any time they want, right?

Yeah but they wont, this is he point. They have rejected God, its a pretty final deal. You dont do so and then in the fullness of eternity decide it was a bad idea after all.
 

Robert165

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I'm not treating the Bible in a selective manner. I am treating it as though it's not necessarily the case that every word and piece of advice given is meant to be taken either as a direct command from God or a tenet to believe.
what? what you mean to say is:

I, Scott, have a pre-formed set of beliefs, and I'm going to go shopping until I find the particular branch christianity that meets my pre set beliefs. Because, that, it seems, is the truth.
 

Lark

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the bible is either:

1- written in total by god, and should be followed 100%
2- written by man and has no more relevance than any other book
3- written partly by man and partly by god and should be viewed
very supiciously, since you can't tell which part is which

The bible was written by men who were channelling God or those who were recording the lives of those who were, prophets or the ministry of Jesus or acts of the apostles for instance. As such it has authority but it requires interpretation like anything else.
 

Robert165

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Yeah but they wont, this is he point. They have rejected God, its a pretty final deal. You dont do so and then in the fullness of eternity decide it was a bad idea after all.

ok, so now all you have to do is show me how etrnal suffering is just punishment for rejecting god. i for one think that non existence, or being sent to a 4 star heaven, with the christian heaven being a 5 star heaven, these are much more moral, compassionate, proper punishments.
 

Robert165

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The bible was written by men who were channelling God or those who were recording the lives of those who were, prophets or the ministry of Jesus or acts of the apostles for instance. As such it has authority but it requires interpretation like anything else.
really? people don't have much time figuring out what plato, aristotle or marcus aurelius meant. perhaps there are fundamental problems with the way the bible was written......
 

Scott

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Hell is reserved for those who reject God and carry on doing so, its not the ultimate reprimand and punishment.

Personally when it comes to reprehensible sorts like rapists I recall that the bible and tradition indicate that God is just and that not only will be see justice done but it will be seen to be done too, any and all victims will receive satisfaction.

As an RC I understand this to involve purgatory and its purgative and purifying process, personally I think it can start in life, people can be afflicted in this life or experience it all in the afterlife.

Hmm, that's pretty interesting. For the sake of authenticity, I should say that I am open to a harsher view of hell than Lark, though I definitely agree that God is not a capricious or cruel God. I trust God to be just; I'm also open to justice meaning more than Lark's view of hell. Because I trust God to be just and can imagine a variety of possibilities that I find sufficiently resonant with sources of truth as I know them, it's not something I spend a lot of time worrying about, though I understand why it can be a very difficult issue.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
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Aug 3, 2008
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So THIS is the point of all debates. I see now. ;)

Yup. And if the red states eventually secede from the Union, all debate stops at all levels.

Well I can see where you're coming from and see how its a concern.
But if I may be so honest, I have lived my life how I wanted to live mine.
Some Christians may not have, but I think this is because they don't understand the concept of God. I truely think others believe its just a 'religion' and nothing else. But if you're a follower of Christ [and by your own choice, not your parents because they cannot choose what your heart believes in] then I've found that God to me is freedom and not oppression. I really think there's a big misconception and misunderstanding of such things.

Well it may even be true that devout religious people have more overall life happiness. So if that's true (I vaguely remember some study) that could definitely be registered as a 'win' for life, even if they turn out to be wrong. So, have at it. :)
 

Scott

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9/5?
what? what you mean to say is:

I, Scott, have a pre-formed set of beliefs, and I'm going to go shopping until I find the particular branch christianity that meets my pre set beliefs. Because, that, it seems, is the truth.

No. How do you get that from what I said?
 

Robert165

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No. How do you get that from what I said?

I'm not treating the Bible in a selective manner. I am treating it as though it's not necessarily the case that every word and piece of advice given is meant to be taken either as a direct command from God or a tenet to believe.

you are deciding which parts of the bible to accept. therefor it is your pre set beleifs that determine what you accept.
 

Robert165

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Hmm, that's pretty interesting. For the sake of authenticity, I should say that I am open to a harsher view of hell than Lark, though I definitely agree that God is not a capricious or cruel God. I trust God to be just; I'm also open to justice meaning more than Lark's view of hell. Because I trust God to be just and can imagine a variety of possibilities that I find sufficiently resonant with sources of truth as I know them, it's not something I spend a lot of time worrying about, though I understand why it can be a very difficult issue.
i'd be interested to see how you define the word "just". how is it possible to punish someone eternaly for a finite crime, and still be just???
 

Scott

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9/5?
really? people don't have much time figuring out what plato, aristotle or marcus aurelius meant. perhaps there are fundamental problems with the way the bible was written......

What? Wow, not the case, especially not if you break it down to the extent that the Bible is. As for how the Bible is written... it's not very surprising that it's more difficult to interpret a compilation of books written in multiple different languages across a lot of time and a variety of cultures, and encompassing a plethora of literary genres and topics, than it is to interpret the writings of a single person who is writing within a single culture's frame of reference, where that culture is one with a decent bit of other writings and such to draw on, and where that person is writing within a genre that tends to make things as explicit and literal as it can most of the time.
 

Robert165

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What? Wow, not the case, especially not if you break it down to the extent that the Bible is. As for how the Bible is written... it's not very surprising that it's more difficult to interpret a compilation of books written in multiple different languages across a lot of time and a variety of cultures, and encompassing a plethora of literary genres and topics, than it is to interpret the writings of a single person who is writing within a single culture's frame of reference, where that culture is one with a decent bit of other writings and such to draw on, and where that person is writing within a genre that tends to make things as explicit and literal as it can most of the time.
it would be hard to reconcile a bunch of books written in different langauges across thousands of years --- if --- the books were written by men
 

Scott

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I'm not treating the Bible in a selective manner. I am treating it as though it's not necessarily the case that every word and piece of advice given is meant to be taken either as a direct command from God or a tenet to believe.

you are deciding which parts of the bible to accept. therefor it is your pre set beleifs that determine what you accept.

I'm not deciding which parts of the Bible to accept. I am deciding how to interpret and apply various parts of the Bible based on context and such. As for the dichotomy between what the Bible says and a potential set of pre-set beliefs, I don't see either as fixed points for me. Seeing what the Bible says on a topic has often changed my perspective on that topic, just as learning something about cultural context or language or acquiring a new perspective has often changed my perspective on passages in the Bible.

This, it seems to me, is a good model for how human knowing works - ideas and beliefs exist in something like networks which are interrelated and often co-dependent. New beliefs occur when a novel idea is brought to mind which is found to be more attractive than the prior beliefs which it threatens to supplant, based on greater resonance within the network in some way, often in conjunction with other factors present in human motivation. It simply isn't possible, however, to come at a text or an idea and interpret it as though that network weren't present. The subjective element is always present, and if it weren't, we wouldn't know how to interpret things anyway. This is inherent in our very basic ways of dividing the world and using language.

If you're expecting me to come at the Bible in a way that doesn't work within a larger network, I'm afraid you're asking for something I don't have to offer. If you think you are coming at the Bible any less subjectively, I would suggest that you are mistaken.
 
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Scott

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it would be hard to reconcile a bunch of books written in different langauges across thousands of years --- if --- the books were written by men

? You earlier attributed part of the Bible to Paul. Was I supposed to disagree?
 

Robert165

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I'm not deciding which parts of the Bible to accept. I am deciding how to interpret and apply various parts of the Bible based on context and such. As for the dichotomy between what the Bible says and a potential set of pre-set beliefs, I don't see either as fixed points for me. Seeing what the Bible says on a topic has often changed my perspective on that topic, just as learning something about cultural context or language or acquiring a new perspective has often changed my perspective on passages in the Bible.

This, it seems to me, is a good model for how human knowing works - ideas and beliefs exist in something like networks which are interrelated and often co-dependent. New beliefs occur when a novel idea is brought to mind which is found to be more attractive than the prior beliefs which it threatens to supplant, based on greater resonance within the network in some way, often in conjunction with other factors present in human motivation. It simply isn't possible, however, to come at a text or an idea and interpret it as though that network weren't present. The subjective element is always present, and if it weren't, we wouldn't know how to interpret things anyway. This is inherent in our very basic ways of dividing the world and using language.

If you're expecting me to come at the Bible in a way that doesn't work within a larger network, I'm afraid you're asking for something I don't have to offer. If you think you are coming at the Bible equally subjectively, I would suggest that you are mistaken.
do you have any objective standars when interpreting the bible, or is it all about what you feel/think. if you have objective standards, what are they?
 
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