INTP and hating religion.

[Robert165]

You've evaded several of my arguments, especially by throwing in Hell randomly and then accuse me of focusing on the definition of faith when that was exactly the issue you brought up. So let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

more insulation and distancing yourself. and yet you seem "offended" that i don't repsect you or take you seriosuly.

 

[Sniffles]

more insulation and distancing yourself.

So....care to answer me on the issue of the principle of non-contradiction?

and yet you seem "offended" that i don't repsect you or take you seriosuly.

No actually I really don't care.

 

[Robert165]

So....care to answer me on the issue of the principle of non-contradiction?

i already answerd that:

No, christianity defines god as both loving, and just. There is nothing loving nor just about hell. The very act of creating a hell and sending people there goes directly against the stated qualities, primary qualites, your god is supposed to have.

 

[Sniffles]

i already answerd that:

No, christianity defines god as both loving, and just. There is nothing loving nor just about hell. The very act of creating a hell and sending people there goes directly against the stated qualities, primary qualites, your god is supposed to have.

Well thats does not actually concern PNC, but oh well.

Concerning Hell, yes it certainly is a tricky issue even for devout Christians. However, it helps to keep some things in mind. Namely that there's been much debate and speculation about who actually goes to there or even whether you stay there permenantly. As a Catholic, I'm required to believe in Hell but Im not required to believe that anybody actually is there. I also know of one school of thought among the Orthodox that at the Last Judgement, Christ does give those in Hell a final chance to enter Heaven, if they are geniunely repentent. So it's very an open question for many Christians.

This might make for some nice reading when you get a chance:
The Population of Hell | First Things

 

[Scott]

Well thats does not actually concern PNC, but oh well.

Concerning Hell, yes it certainly is a tricky issue even for devout Christians. However, it helps to keep some things in mind. Namely that there's been much debate and speculation about who actually goes to there or even whether you stay there permenantly. As a Catholic, I'm required to believe in Hell but Im not required to believe that anybody actually is there. I also know of one school of thought among the Orthodox that at the Last Judgement, Christ does give those in Hell a final chance to enter Heaven, if they are geniunely repentent. So it's very an open question for many Christians.

This might make for some nice reading when you get a chance:
The Population of Hell | First Things

I also think there's more of an argument for annihilationism than is often given intelligent voice. But I really have no problem with the justice of it all either way and have a lot of respect for the traditional views.

 

[Robert165]

Concerning Hell, yes it certainly is a tricky issue even for devout Christians. However, it helps to keep some things in mind. Namely that there's been much debate and speculation about who actually goes to there or even whether you stay there permenantly. As a Catholic, I'm required to believe in Hell but Im not required to believe that anybody actually is there. I also know of one school of thought among the Orthodox that at the Last Judgement, Christ does give those in Hell a final chance to enter Heaven, if they are geniunely repentent. So it's very an open question for many Christians.

its what the bible says

 

[Haphazard]

It seems that when we talk about "religion" it inevitably boils down to "do x and y and you'll go to a pleasant afterlife".

I keep looking back to Judaism and I see no such promise. In fact, as the saying goes, "ask 10 rabbis what happens after you die and you'll get 11 different answers". There is no mention of Hell and really none of Heaven in the sense that people end up there. If religion is supposed to be based on giving some sort of clear, possibly-pleasant picture of death, then Judaism is kind of a failure religion.

Then again, I would not say all religions have such things. I mean, look at the ancient Greeks. *shrug*

 

[mrgorbachev]

It seems that when we talk about "religion" it inevitably boils down to "do x and y and you'll go to a pleasant afterlife".

I keep looking back to Judaism and I see no such promise. In fact, as the saying goes, "ask 10 rabbis what happens after you die and you'll get 11 different answers". There is no mention of Hell and really none of Heaven in the sense that people end up there. If religion is supposed to be based on giving some sort of clear, possibly-pleasant picture of death, then Judaism is kind of a failure religion.

Then again, I would not say all religions have such things. I mean, look at the ancient Greeks. *shrug*

I think that even the fact that there are so many varying interpretations is not so much a matter of there not being any interest in it, so much as it is in the nature of Judaism as a religion of self-determination. I can't remember exactly how the quote goes, but there is some saying about how a man has to understand God by his own means, and I think that explain the lack of a one-size-fits-all attempt to essentialize the Jewish afterlife.

But there is mention of Hell (or more like purgatory, I guess) and [URL="http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm]Heaven[/URL] in Rabbinical discourse. It's just not as essential to the understanding of Jewish thought as the same ideas are to Christian or Islamic thought because Judaism is "a religion of life."

 

[ajblaise]

people like you really frustrate me. there are some fundamental problems with your religion. you think, or at least your text calls for, me and everyone who doesnt think like you to go to hell and suffer/burn forever. thats a pretty horrible idea. i guess thats why you rather focus on mamonides and aquanias and haggle over the defintion of "faith". it's a lot eaier than admitting you're hooked up with one of the worst ideas ever invented by man.

There's a lot about Biblical descriptions of Hell that's pretty insulting to non-Christians. But more and more, the average Christian doesn't go around thinking everyone that doesn't think exactly like them is going to burn for eternity. Hell is becoming more symbolic and allegorical and less literal in their minds, even though the same hasn't exactly happened with Heaven (because it's suppose to be nice there).

i already answerd that:

No, christianity defines god as both loving, and just. There is nothing loving nor just about hell. The very act of creating a hell and sending people there goes directly against the stated qualities, primary qualites, your god is supposed to have.

You might think of it as perverted justice, but it is still technically a form of justice. And Christianity doesn't only define God as loving and just, there is also vengeance, anger, jealousy etc. (more so in the OT than the NT). God seems to run the gambit of human emotion.

As a Catholic, I'm required to believe in Hell but Im not required to believe that anybody actually is there.

Do you actually think anyone is there? Or just that it's an empty but literal place?

 

[onemoretime]

As a Catholic, I'm required to believe in Hell but Im not required to believe that anybody actually is there.

Why do you let your religion define your beliefs, rather than let your beliefs define your religion?

 

[ajblaise]

Why do you let your religion define your beliefs, rather than let your beliefs define your religion?

Because when you do that, you don't always end up within your religion anymore.

Actually, there was a study that showed that a high percentage of Christians incorporate parts of Eastern religion and New Age into their belief system and hold views incompatible with Christianity. I think pick-and-choose religion is great, because the views of religious people that fall out of popular favor over time tend to be the most bigoted and outdated ones.

 

[Sniffles]

Why do you let your religion define your beliefs, rather than let your beliefs define your religion?

Because among other things, I have the humility to admit that I myself don't hold all the answers. Plus there's also the simple fact that I tend agree with what the Church tends to teach anyways. If that were not so, I would either become Orthodox, join another religion, or go back to being an atheist.

I think pick-and-choose religion is great, because the views of religious people that fall out of popular favor over time tend to be the most bigoted and outdated ones.

Actually you're wrong. The ones that stick towards orthodox beliefs tend to outlive those Christians that simply follow prevailing trends. I guess the best example known example would be the liberal Christians who supported fascist movements and eugenics in the early 20th century.

 

[Robert165]

There's a lot about Biblical descriptions of Hell that's pretty insulting to non-Christians. But more and more, the average Christian doesn't go around thinking everyone that doesn't think exactly like them is going to burn for eternity. Hell is becoming more symbolic and allegorical and less literal in their minds, even though the same hasn't exactly happened with Heaven (because it's suppose to be nice there).

it doesnt matter if they want to ignore it. its stil there, in the bible.

You might think of it as perverted justice, but it is still technically a form of justice. And Christianity doesn't only define God as loving and just, there is also vengeance, anger, jealousy etc. (more so in the OT than the NT). God seems to run the gambit of human emotion.

1- justice= punishment fits the crime
2- OT = is not the NT
3- in the NT god is loving

 

[Blackmail!]

1- justice= punishment fits the crime
2- OT = is not the NT
3- in the NT god is loving

That's why you can say Jews and Christians don't worship the same entity at all.
Nietzsche noticed that too: Both testaments are too contradictory.

 

[Sniffles]

That's why you can say Jews and Christians don't worship the same entity at all.
Nietzsche noticed that too: Both testaments are too contradictory.

"The New Testament God is really kind of a great guy. He is, especially when you compare him to the Old Testament God -- who is a prick."
--Lewis Black

 

[Scott]

it doesnt matter if they want to ignore it. its stil there, in the bible.

Hardly. For one, it seems to me that it would be difficult to read the Bible and come away thinking that a main point of it all is to get to heaven and avoid hell. Hell is just in no way a prominent theme in the Bible and doesn't show up very much, and where it is there it's hardly clear what exactly it is. You're making assertions of its presence in the Bible, but seem to be relying almost exclusively on certain streams of tradition which go well beyond what's stated in the Bible in your understanding of hell.

For another, you seem to talk about the Bible like a fundamentalist would - as though it's very straightforward as to what it says and as though it's the one supreme authority for Christians. This is a minority view among Christians.

 

[corey_vann]

I don't think it's because your an INTP that you hate religion. I know of at least four INTPs that I go to church with. One is the teaching pastor, another is a philosophy professor at a local college, another is a good friend of mine who is planning on going to seminary, and the other is one of the most brilliant people I have ever met.

 

[Robert165]

Hardly. For one, it seems to me that it would be difficult to read the Bible and come away thinking that a main point of it all is to get to heaven and avoid hell. Hell is just in no way a prominent theme in the Bible and doesn't show up very much, and where it is there it's hardly clear what exactly it is. You're making assertions of its presence in the Bible, but seem to be relying almost exclusively on certain streams of tradition which go well beyond what's stated in the Bible in your understanding of hell.

For another, you seem to talk about the Bible like a fundamentalist would - as though it's very straightforward as to what it says and as though it's the one supreme authority for Christians. This is a minority view among Christians.

everthing i am stating can be pulled directly fron the bible. ignoring it, excusising it, rationlizing it doesn't change anything.

 

[sLiPpY]

I haven't set foot in a church for over twelve years.

Very active throughout my youth, primarily for the social aspects...

My thoughts on the topic are nearly identical to George Carlin and
Penn and Teller.

If people choose to pay clergy and for construction, I see it no differently
than people choosing to pay bankers and for their construction.

At least the church offers a social network in return.

So not an NT thing, I know at least four ISTP's who think organized religion is bull.

 

[Scott]

everthing i am stating can be pulled directly fron the bible. ignoring it, excusising it, rationlizing it doesn't change anything.

Really? Then please, do enlighten me.