INTP and hating religion.

[Blackmail!]

That's a fairly compelling justification for religion: "without it, people will justify tribal warfare by other means!"

Come on, we already have the nation-state and political ideology for that.

That's what I (we) said. Religion is only a sociological phenomena amongst many, and so are sports, ideologies and politics.

Many elements within them are freely interchangeable or are at least very similar.

 

[Robert165]

Interesting idea.

Do sports really promote a kind of ethos?

well, consider teh fact that most of London, or Birminhams, best Football players don't come from either London orBirmingham, you have to accept there is some kind of twisted triabl thinking to sports. You wouldn't think a Londoner would cheer for a team made up of people from all over europe, but for some reason, they do. I mean these are people you dont know and they proably wouldn't lend you 10 euros, and you care about the outcome of a football match they are playing in???

bizzare

 

[Blackmail!]

well, consider teh fact that most of London, or Birminhams, best Football players don't come from either London orBirmingham, you have to accept there is some kind of twisted triabl thinking to sports. You wouldn't think a Londoner would cheer for a team made up of people from all over europe, but for some reason, they do. I mean these are people you dont know and they proably wouldn't lend you 10 euros, and you care about the outcome of a football match they are playing in???

bizzare

It really is!

 

[Haphazard]

That's a fairly compelling justification for religion: "without it, people will justify tribal warfare by other means!"

Well, actually, tribal warfare by sports teams might be more interesting than religious persecution...

 

[Blackmail!]

Well, actually, tribal warfare by sports teams might be more interesting than religious persecution...

That's blasphemy, my dear little Hap'!

 

[onemoretime]

Well, actually, tribal warfare by sports teams might be more interesting than religious persecution...

For example, see Italy.

 

[Sniffles]

In the same time, Ibn Rushd (Averroes) noticed that faith and reason can lead to conflicting solutions -most of the time, he said-, and hence, do not belong to the same "world", to the same "sphere".

Of course that's going to happen, where faith and reason are sometimes in tension. But tension does not necessarily mean faith and reason have nothing to do with each other. Quite the contrary, it shows that faith and reason must keep each other in proper balance. I believe Maimonides made a similar point as well about this.

 

[Robert165]

Of course that's going to happen, where faith and reason are sometimes in tension. But tension does not necessarily mean faith and reason have nothing to do with each other. Quite the contrary, it shows that faith and reason must keep each other in proper balance. I believe Maimonides made a similar point as well about this.

doubt is created by lack of factual evidence or contradiction within dogma. so in order to get rid of this doubt, one must either change their mind or aquire the esoteric quality of "faith".

 

[Sniffles]

doubt is created by lack of factual evidence or contradiction within dogma. so in order to get rid of this doubt, one must either change their mind or aquire the esoteric quality of "faith".

There's nothing esoteric about faith. Faith basically means trust, which is fundamental to human life however way you perceive it(regardless of belief or disbelief in God). Concerning contradictions, you have to realise that religious belief is based heavily on paradox.

 

[lowtech redneck]

I'm INTP and I don't hate religion; I find it boring (in the personal rather than sociological context), unconvincing, and I like to make fun of it, but I think it has great utilitarian value.

 

[milkyway2]

I was a Christian and believed in God hardcore until I was like 17 or 18. Even after I started to question Christianity I still took the arguments seriously for God existing and gave them a whole lot of thought. The more time that goes on and the more and more I think about it the less and less I can believe there is a God.

 

[Owl]

a complex idea built upon a hollow shell is a complex idea built upon a hollow shell

I agree.

Propaganda to make a book more appealing to Gnostics doesn't confer a quality on a figure who may or may not have tangibly existed.

Sure, it's more appealing to Gnostics. It's more appealing to everyone!

At this point in the thread, I'm not concerned with whether Jesus existed or not, or even whether the system of beliefs that comprises the fundamentals of the Christian worldview are true or not, but with whether there is "one precept central to christianity that embodies the spirit of reason." (A fortuitous phrasing as the Gospel of John quite clearly calls Jesus the logos incarnate.)

 

[Robert165]

There's nothing esoteric about faith. Faith basically means trust, which is fundamental to human life however way you perceive it(regardless of belief or disbelief in God). Concerning contradictions, you have to realise that religious belief is based heavily on paradox.

esoteric = understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge or interest

i think that applies to faith. i'd furthermore add the words nebulous, intangible, and insulating.



even if a paradox were the same thing as a contradiction (its not) that would be no reason for me (or anyone) to accept the validity of any religious claim or concept.

 

[Sniffles]

esoteric = understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge or interest

I know what esoteric means, and I stand by my argument.

even if a paradox were the same thing as a contradiction (its not) that would be no reason for me (or anyone) to accept the validity of any religious claim or concept.

It's true that contradictions and paradoxes are not the same thing, too often people confuse the two in regards to its relationship to religious truth. You certainly are confusing the two in this case. Furthermore, your argument rests upon asserting the Principle of Non-Contradiction - which ironically itself cannot actually be proven to be true but must be assumed to be. In other words, an Axiom as it's called in logic. So perhaps it's you who's the one engaging in contradiction here.

 

[Robert165]

I know what esoteric means, and I stand by my argument.

people like you really frustrate me. there are some fundamental problems with your religion. you think, or at least your text calls for, me and everyone who doesnt think like you to go to hell and suffer/burn forever. thats a pretty horrible idea. i guess thats why you rather focus on mamonides and aquanias and haggle over the defintion of "faith". it's a lot eaier than admitting you're hooked up with one of the worst ideas ever invented by man.

 

[Robert165]

It's true that contradictions and paradoxes are not the same thing, too often people confuse the two in regards to its relationship to religious truth. You certainly are confusing the two in this case. Furthermore, your argument rests upon asserting the Principle of Non-Contradiction - which ironically itself cannot actually be proven to be true but must be assumed to be. In other words, an Axiom as it's called in logic. So perhaps it's you who's the one engaging in contradiction here.

No, christianity defines god as both loving, and just. There is nothing loving nor just about hell. The very act of creating a hell and sending people there goes directly against the stated qualities, primary qualites, your god is supposed to have.

 

[Sniffles]

Yes I can see why I'm frustrating to you, because I actually know what I'm talking about in regards to the topic at hand.

No, christianity defines god as both loving, and just. There is nothing loving nor just about hell. The very act of creating a hell and sending people there goes directly against the stated qualities, primary qualites, your god is supposed to have.

I guess your whole argument here just revolves around Hell.

 

[Robert165]

Yes I can see why I'm frustrating to you, because I actually know what I'm talking about in regards to the topic at hand.

i've laid out some rather straitforward complaints. so i guess i was right when i said you rather evade them than admit to being a part of them.

 

[Robert165]

I guess your whole argument here just revolves around Hell.

as if pointing that out makes it any less of a horrible idea.

 

[Sniffles]

You've evaded several of my arguments, especially by throwing in Hell randomly and then accuse me of focusing on the definition of faith when that was exactly the issue you brought up. So let he who is without sin cast the first stone.