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  1. #81
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You've evaded several of my arguments, especially by throwing in Hell randomly and then accuse me of focusing on the definition of faith when that was exactly the issue you brought up. So let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
    more insulation and distancing yourself. and yet you seem "offended" that i don't repsect you or take you seriosuly.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    more insulation and distancing yourself.
    So....care to answer me on the issue of the principle of non-contradiction?

    and yet you seem "offended" that i don't repsect you or take you seriosuly.
    No actually I really don't care.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So....care to answer me on the issue of the principle of non-contradiction?
    i already answerd that:

    No, christianity defines god as both loving, and just. There is nothing loving nor just about hell. The very act of creating a hell and sending people there goes directly against the stated qualities, primary qualites, your god is supposed to have.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    i already answerd that:

    No, christianity defines god as both loving, and just. There is nothing loving nor just about hell. The very act of creating a hell and sending people there goes directly against the stated qualities, primary qualites, your god is supposed to have.
    Well thats does not actually concern PNC, but oh well.

    Concerning Hell, yes it certainly is a tricky issue even for devout Christians. However, it helps to keep some things in mind. Namely that there's been much debate and speculation about who actually goes to there or even whether you stay there permenantly. As a Catholic, I'm required to believe in Hell but Im not required to believe that anybody actually is there. I also know of one school of thought among the Orthodox that at the Last Judgement, Christ does give those in Hell a final chance to enter Heaven, if they are geniunely repentent. So it's very an open question for many Christians.

    This might make for some nice reading when you get a chance:
    The Population of Hell | First Things

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well thats does not actually concern PNC, but oh well.

    Concerning Hell, yes it certainly is a tricky issue even for devout Christians. However, it helps to keep some things in mind. Namely that there's been much debate and speculation about who actually goes to there or even whether you stay there permenantly. As a Catholic, I'm required to believe in Hell but Im not required to believe that anybody actually is there. I also know of one school of thought among the Orthodox that at the Last Judgement, Christ does give those in Hell a final chance to enter Heaven, if they are geniunely repentent. So it's very an open question for many Christians.

    This might make for some nice reading when you get a chance:
    The Population of Hell | First Things
    I also think there's more of an argument for annihilationism than is often given intelligent voice. But I really have no problem with the justice of it all either way and have a lot of respect for the traditional views.
    "There are no answers, only choices."
    -Jennifer

  6. #86
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Concerning Hell, yes it certainly is a tricky issue even for devout Christians. However, it helps to keep some things in mind. Namely that there's been much debate and speculation about who actually goes to there or even whether you stay there permenantly. As a Catholic, I'm required to believe in Hell but Im not required to believe that anybody actually is there. I also know of one school of thought among the Orthodox that at the Last Judgement, Christ does give those in Hell a final chance to enter Heaven, if they are geniunely repentent. So it's very an open question for many Christians.
    its what the bible says
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  7. #87
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    It seems that when we talk about "religion" it inevitably boils down to "do x and y and you'll go to a pleasant afterlife".

    I keep looking back to Judaism and I see no such promise. In fact, as the saying goes, "ask 10 rabbis what happens after you die and you'll get 11 different answers". There is no mention of Hell and really none of Heaven in the sense that people end up there. If religion is supposed to be based on giving some sort of clear, possibly-pleasant picture of death, then Judaism is kind of a failure religion.

    Then again, I would not say all religions have such things. I mean, look at the ancient Greeks. *shrug*
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #88
    Junior Member mrgorbachev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    It seems that when we talk about "religion" it inevitably boils down to "do x and y and you'll go to a pleasant afterlife".

    I keep looking back to Judaism and I see no such promise. In fact, as the saying goes, "ask 10 rabbis what happens after you die and you'll get 11 different answers". There is no mention of Hell and really none of Heaven in the sense that people end up there. If religion is supposed to be based on giving some sort of clear, possibly-pleasant picture of death, then Judaism is kind of a failure religion.

    Then again, I would not say all religions have such things. I mean, look at the ancient Greeks. *shrug*
    I think that even the fact that there are so many varying interpretations is not so much a matter of there not being any interest in it, so much as it is in the nature of Judaism as a religion of self-determination. I can't remember exactly how the quote goes, but there is some saying about how a man has to understand God by his own means, and I think that explain the lack of a one-size-fits-all attempt to essentialize the Jewish afterlife.

    But there is mention of Hell (or more like purgatory, I guess) and Heaven in Rabbinical discourse. It's just not as essential to the understanding of Jewish thought as the same ideas are to Christian or Islamic thought because Judaism is "a religion of life."
    "People from a planet without flowers would think we must be mad with joy to have such things about us at all times."-Iris Murdoch

  9. #89
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    people like you really frustrate me. there are some fundamental problems with your religion. you think, or at least your text calls for, me and everyone who doesnt think like you to go to hell and suffer/burn forever. thats a pretty horrible idea. i guess thats why you rather focus on mamonides and aquanias and haggle over the defintion of "faith". it's a lot eaier than admitting you're hooked up with one of the worst ideas ever invented by man.
    There's a lot about Biblical descriptions of Hell that's pretty insulting to non-Christians. But more and more, the average Christian doesn't go around thinking everyone that doesn't think exactly like them is going to burn for eternity. Hell is becoming more symbolic and allegorical and less literal in their minds, even though the same hasn't exactly happened with Heaven (because it's suppose to be nice there).

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    i already answerd that:

    No, christianity defines god as both loving, and just. There is nothing loving nor just about hell. The very act of creating a hell and sending people there goes directly against the stated qualities, primary qualites, your god is supposed to have.
    You might think of it as perverted justice, but it is still technically a form of justice. And Christianity doesn't only define God as loving and just, there is also vengeance, anger, jealousy etc. (more so in the OT than the NT). God seems to run the gambit of human emotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    As a Catholic, I'm required to believe in Hell but Im not required to believe that anybody actually is there.
    Do you actually think anyone is there? Or just that it's an empty but literal place?

  10. #90
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    As a Catholic, I'm required to believe in Hell but Im not required to believe that anybody actually is there.
    Why do you let your religion define your beliefs, rather than let your beliefs define your religion?

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