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INTP and hating religion.

ajblaise

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but the bible implores slaves to obey their masters. so any good christian that is against slavery is on the worng side of the issue.

I believe in those passages about slavery, it was God talking to the ancient Israelites. So I'm not sure it would apply now.
 

ajblaise

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Why does it even matter?
Why do people care so much about what Christians believe or not?

Because they vote. ;)

If Christians are wrong, well then they really have nothing to lose in believing and trusting in God. But what if they're right? Then its really non-believers who have more to lose than a Christian if they're wrong.
People may think Christians are ignorant or stupid, but what if they're right? What if everything in the Bible is completely true?

That's true, eternally, non-believers have much more to lose. But on this earth, maybe if Christians end up being wrong, some of them maybe would have liked to live their life differently; knowing that this is their only one.
 

Scott

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pointing out what the bible says is not "serious"

Pointing it out in very cheap ways isn't. Particularly when you're arguing with a Catholic and talking about the Bible like an evangelical Protestant.

As for the slavery bit, Paul speaks from the world he is in, clearly speaks progressively and sees slaves as just as human as anyone else. Paul's advice to slaves pretty well parallel's Jesus' "turn the other cheek", neither of which condones the other side.
 

Scott

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Because they vote. ;)

Yep, I agree. And for much more than voting, not that I think ajblaise meant that to be all-encompassing anyway. If we're wrong, it matters.

(well, depending on how meaning is construed of course... but point is there's no reason to think it shouldn't matter)
 

Robert165

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Pointing it out in very cheap ways isn't. Particularly when you're arguing with a Catholic and talking about the Bible like an evangelical Protestant.

As for the slavery bit, Paul speaks from the world he is in, clearly speaks progressively and sees slaves as just as human as anyone else. Paul's advice to slaves pretty well parallel's Jesus' "turn the other cheek", neither of which condones the other side.
so whats the non-cheap way to point out that the bible tells slaves to obey their masters?
 

Scott

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so whats the non-cheap way to point out that the bible tells slaves to obey their masters?

Well, you could start by showing some openness to understanding. Asking a question like, "So what do you do with the passage where Paul tells slaves to obey their masters?" could be a good choice. This allows for a potential nuanced response, doesn't use an accusatory tone or create an air of me-vs-you, and doesn't make assumptions about things like the place the Bible takes in one's reckoning of authority or whether there might be an intelligent perspective that you're not aware of which does good business with the passage.
 

Robert165

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Well, you could start by showing some openness to understanding. Asking a question like, "So what do you do with the passage where Paul tells slaves to obey their masters?" could be a good choice. This allows for a potential nuanced response, doesn't use an accusatory tone or create an air of me-vs-you, and doesn't make assumptions about things like the place the Bible takes in one's reckoning of authority or whether there might be an intelligent perspective that you're not aware of which does good business with the passage.
ah but it's ALREADY a me vs you delima, dont you see? you christains have the truth and the rest of us are going to hell. that you dont see this as a me vs you delima, is in fact, the majority of the problem.
 

Scott

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Or maybe it's indicative of the fact that my theology isn't point-for-point what you think Christian theology is supposed to be. Not to mention the theology of most Christians.
 

Robert165

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Or maybe it's indicative of the fact that my theology isn't point-for-point what you think Christian theology is supposed to be. Not to mention the theology of most Christians.
chrisitan theology isn't supposed to adhere to what the bible says???
 

Lark

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so whats the non-cheap way to point out that the bible tells slaves to obey their masters?

What the bible does teach lead to the social trend described by Hilaire Belloc in The Servile State which lead to the decline and fall of slavery within the Roman Empire and the rise of a much more stable and less oppressive social order. It was one of the only examples in history of the over throwing of an oppressive social institution without mass bloodshed, war, revolution and displaced populations.

However, so far as the institution of slavery itself goes it survived for a long, long time after the selective citation of biblical or scriptural authority was in vogue, I wonder why that was? Oh, yeah, that's right Darwinism, science and rationalism, who'd have thunk it?

But wait, were's the evidence for that? Well, its hard to find because unlike the bible which is reproduced warts and all by Christians honest about their history there is no single volume or text or group of texts universally supported as the canon of rationalism and science. So there's nothing to be produced warts and all and scientists or rationalists can pass off frenology or other quack science and mad science as abberations which really are a variety of unreason after all.

Although, the once biblical support for slavery acknowledged, who or what lead the modern campaign for the abolition of slavery? Wilberforce? Wait he was a Christian moralist!! Must not have read his bible :p
 

ajblaise

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ah but it's ALREADY a me vs you delima, dont you see? you christains have the truth and the rest of us are going to hell. that you dont see this as a me vs you delima, is in fact, the majority of the problem.

Yeah but you probably shouldn't confront Scott like he's the representative for all Christians and the wider culture war, especially if he's not trying to do it like that. There are plenty of Christians that don't even believe in Hell, too.
 

ayoitsStepho

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Because they vote. ;)

So THIS is the point of all debates. I see now. ;)

That's true, eternally, non-believers have much more to lose. But on this earth, maybe if Christians end up being wrong, some of them maybe would have liked to live their life differently; knowing that this is their only one.

Well I can see where you're coming from and see how its a concern.
But if I may be so honest, I have lived my life how I wanted to live mine.
Some Christians may not have, but I think this is because they don't understand the concept of God. I truely think others believe its just a 'religion' and nothing else. But if you're a follower of Christ [and by your own choice, not your parents because they cannot choose what your heart believes in] then I've found that God to me is freedom and not oppression. I really think there's a big misconception and misunderstanding of such things.
 

Robert165

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Yeah but you probably shouldn't confront Scott like he's the representative for all Christians and the wider culture war, especially if he's not trying to do it like that. There are plenty of Christians that don't even believe in Hell, too.

yeah but scot says if hell is a literal place he's not botherd that people go there.
 

Lark

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chrisitan theology isn't supposed to adhere to what the bible says???

What you're describing is solo scripturum (spelling) one of the twin pillars of protestantism, not Christianity per se, it's a belief in biblical literalism and the perrenial truth and application of biblical texts both old and new testaments and that is makes sense without scholastic interpretation.

Its not the belief or practice of the RC church which has always held that the church and church tradition created the bible and not vice versa, therefore tradition and the bible but first and foremost tradition is the most important source of Christian theology and dogma.

In practice this is the case with all protestant congregations too, especially the older ones, they have traditions too, different ones to the RC tradition but they can not claim to be pure biblical literalists without denying their own histories and origins.
 

Lark

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Yeah but you probably shouldn't confront Scott like he's the representative for all Christians and the wider culture war, especially if he's not trying to do it like that. There are plenty of Christians that don't even believe in Hell, too.

Heretics.
 

Robert165

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What you're describing is solo scripturum (spelling) one of the twin pillars of protestantism, not Christianity per se, it's a belief in biblical literalism and the perrenial truth and application of biblical texts both old and new testaments and that is makes sense without scholastic interpretation.

Its not the belief or practice of the RC church which has always held that the church and church tradition created the bible and not vice versa, therefore tradition and the bible but first and foremost tradition is the most important source of Christian theology and dogma.

In practice this is the case with all protestant congregations too, especially the older ones, they have traditions too, different ones to the RC tradition but they can not claim to be pure biblical literalists without denying their own histories and origins.
ok, none of that makes treating the bible as truth in a selctive manner any more acceptable
 

Lark

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yeah but scot says if hell is a literal place he's not botherd that people go there.

Hell is the afterlife equivalent of misanthropy or an anti-social personality disorder, it is not the work of a punitive, capricious or vengeful God, although it is depicted that way, either as a consequence of anthropomorphism or hostility.

No, the inmates of hell hold the keys and the locks are on their side of the doors, they dont want to be with God, they have rejected God, as a consequence of pride, hate, any number of other evil motives.

As a result its not a terrible concept, its not the gulag.
 

ajblaise

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yeah but scot says if hell is a literal place he's not botherd that people go there.

That doesn't bother me. In most people's minds, Hell is reserved for the worst; murderers, rapists, and such. The "If you don't accept Jesus you go to Hell" thing actually conflicts with a lot of Christian's interpretations about Hell.
 
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