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  1. #451
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    ENTP, and personally I think it hasn't done the world a whole lot of good.
    But just think what if there wasn't any? It could've been a whole lot worse, or in this case, a whole lot better:
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5WKPpHCalY"]sdfgs[/YOUTUBE]

    But then again, we could just be killing everyone for the sake of nothing, as some people just seem that they're meant to be ignorant.

    I can understand the good in it though, and I'm for anyone of any religion who finds guidance in their life through it and doesn't shove it down other people's throats.

    That's right, Jehovah Witnesses...just see what happens when you step on my doormat

  2. #452
    Member IntrovertedThinker's Avatar
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    Also, it seems some people prefer true modesty and humility. Yet, that's just not personally my style. I can tolerate modesty, but don't hold people to some ridiculous notion that they aren't ever justified or permitted to make bold claims which they feel are justified.

    In other words, I don't think a lack of humility is always a bad thing, to be frowned upon. If it's justified, and if it's not done with too much dangerous excess, it then merely becomes an alternative way of expressing one's view, rather than a completely excessive notion which the person making it cannot back up.

    But some people prefer humility, and good for them. It's relative, optional, and preferential. If you prefer humility, then be humble and modest, but don't expect everyone else to, and don't assume that anyone who isn't humble or modest is unjustified and self-righteous, because that's illogical. I prefer honest arrogance, and yet I don't hold it to be true that anyone who isn't honestly arrogant is somehow flawed or defective. So treat people fairly. I don't rub my honest arrogance off on you, or expect anything of you, and in return, you shouldn't expect anything of me. And in doing so, there should be tolerance for the manner in which people express themselves differently.

    And here are a few great quotes to which express my position on this:

    I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. - Bruce Lee (ISTP)

    Early in life I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. I chose the former and have seen no reason to change. - Frank Lloyd Wright (INTP)

    If I'm critical towards religion in general, and religious followers themselves, then so be it. I've logical grounds on which to find these things to be faulty (as many thinker types have done in the past, e.g., John Lennon, Bertrand Russell, and Isaac Asimov). I find it all to be entirely distasteful. But do I expect you guys to suddenly drop religion and start living as I do? No. That would be foolish to push such expectations on others.

    Thus, I simply provide criticism where it is warranted. Religion honestly deserves my criticism, as far as I'm concerned. But you have no reason to expect me to be more humble. Humility isn't always required or necessary, and honest arrogance is often times justified and preferred. So piss off.

  3. #453
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedThinker View Post
    Give me one good reason.
    I know many people that have benefited from the thing. It gave them hope in their darkest hour and a person to confide in when they were alone. One of the strongest and most respectable women I know is religious; she was in a car crash about seven years ago and she will openly admit that if it was not for god, she would have been a completely different person. Hell, my mother was about to commit suicide when I was a baby but she says that I smiled at her right before she was about to kill herself and that made her want to live and she prayed to god that day and was saved. I can name numerous incidents where religion has bettered people or families. I've experienced this firsthand many times.

    Please note that I'm not saying that we should be accepting of violence or abuse... I'm only saying that we must see the goodness in the thing as there is goodness in it. It is more of an agnostic take on things, I know, but it is certainly more rational than blind hatred.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  4. #454
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    I have never understood the appeal in religion either. It makes no logical or ethical sense to me and my fundamental principles. I have a hard time with a friend of mine who is quite deeply religious. For her, it's about ethical guidance, being connected to God and her community, believing in something more, knowing that someone will always be there for her...

  5. #455
    Member IntrovertedThinker's Avatar
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    Actually, I suppose "honest arrogance" can be a form of self-righteousness, but not in the derogatory sense, because self-righteousness is only truly wrong when it's unjustified or hypocritical. There is nothing inherently wrong with someone who is honestly aware of their righteousness and then makes statements accordingly. For is it an impossible notion that someone is actually aware of their own level of correctness? Not at all. Intelligent people are often times very justified in their self-awareness, in the notion that they are actually fairly correct in some particular situation.

    Thus, honest arrogance and insolent demeanor isn't necessarily wrong. If it offends people, oh well. It doesn't make it wrong or unjustified, but merely socially disfavored. Yet, many INTPs don't care for social conventions, so the rest of you will just have to live with it. You enjoy the status quo and minding social conventions, some people don't. Are they criminal or rude? Not necessarily. They just don't prefer what you prefer, and there's nothing wrong with someone who doesn't favor to mind social conventions, not because they are rude or mean, but because it's just not their cup of tea.

    If I am wrong about anything which I've said, then explain how, LOGICALLY. Then you can call me self-righteous and smug and arrogant and snobby all you want. But if I'm actually justified in the statements I have made, what reason do you have to attempt to look down on my demeanor, if it's simply my way of honestly expressing myself?

    Knowledge in martial arts actually means self-knowledge. A martial artist has to take responsibility for himself and accept the consequences of his own doing. The understanding of JKD is through personal feeling from movement to movement in the mirror of the relationship and not through a process of isolation. To be is to be related. To isolate is death. To me, ultimately, martial arts means honestly expressing yourself. Now, it is very difficult to do. It has always been very easy for me to put on a show and be cocky, and be flooded with a cocky feeling and feel pretty cool and all that. I can make all kinds of phoney things. Blinded by it. Or I can show some really fancy movement. But to experience oneself honestly, not lying to oneself, and to express myself honestly, now that is very hard to do. - Bruce Lee
    Notice the awareness of "self-knowledge." Not everyone has great self-knowledge. Not everyone is entirely confident in their abilities. But I am. I have great intrapersonal intelligence (self-knowledge). Thus, am super confident in what I believe and say, and to me it's just a matter of being honest with myself and everyone else. Hence, HONEST arrogance. If I were to dress up the truth in euphemisms and whatnot, just to make everyone else feel better, isn't my style. I have to be direct and blunt. And then I'm called self-righteous, smug, and snobby for it. Haha. How ridiculous!

  6. #456
    Member IntrovertedThinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    I know many people that have benefited from the thing. It gave them hope in their darkest hour and a person to confide in when they were alone. One of the strongest and most respectable women I know is religious; she was in a car crash about seven years ago and she will openly admit that if it was not for god, she would have been a completely different person. Hell, my mother was about to commit suicide when I was a baby but she says that I smiled at her right before she was about to kill herself and that made her want to live and she prayed to god that day and was saved. I can name numerous incidents where religion has bettered people or families. I've experienced this firsthand many times.

    Please note that I'm not saying that we should be accepting of violence or abuse... I'm only saying that we must see the goodness in the thing as there is goodness in it. It is more of an agnostic take on things, I know, but it is certainly more rational than blind hatred.
    Well, luckily for you, I wasn't really referring to people who honestly benefit from religion, on a truly spiritual level. Like Nietzsche, I understand this truth:

    Faith does not offer the least support for a proof of objective truth. Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire.
    I know that the truth can be hard to digest, and many people simply prefer to believe in happy thoughts. It brings consolation and is rather therapeutic. However, not everyone who attends church actually needs or requires what it offers. I'm sure many people just go because it's socially expected of them. Hence, are merely wasting their time doing something which is nothing more than mindless ritual.

    Hence, if you don't attend church HONESTLY, because it's a place which brings you peace of mind, emotional consolation, and spiritual harmony, then you are the target of my criticism, because you are falling victim to a mindless social ritual which wastes your time every Sunday. And those are the mindless drones I'm talking about. People meandering around because they feel obligated to believe in God or attend Church.

    Those who honestly need spiritual direction, however, I suppose are somewhat justified in doing so, because the horrors of the unknown and the fear of mortality can break any mortal being down to the core. As such, religion is a great thing to rely on (if you actually realize it's limitations). Hence, as someone else said, may we accept religion is a social part of the culture, but may we also evolve past it eventually.

  7. #457
    Member IntrovertedThinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    I have never understood the appeal in religion either. It makes no logical or ethical sense to me and my fundamental principles. I have a hard time with a friend of mine who is quite deeply religious. For her, it's about ethical guidance, being connected to God and her community, believing in something more, knowing that someone will always be there for her...
    Yeah, I don't get that either. Your friend is the type of person I just don't understand. "Ethical guidance"? Can't people think for themselves! "Connected with God"? Because the idea brings comfort in a world of nihilistic ugliness and absurdity, or because she feels socially compelled? "Believing in something more, and for her community?" What a bunch of nonsense!

    Seriously. It's one thing to believe in religion PRIVATELY, and honestly because you gain some kind of spiritual benefit from it. But those people who are just following traditional trends and doing it only because they were raised to feel obliged to believe in God and attend church are nothing more than mindless drones who can't think for themselves.

  8. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedThinker View Post
    If someone questions my atheism as if I'm an alien, or some kind of hedonistic heathen who lacks moral who is going to go out and murder a bunch of people for not believing in God, as if I'm a freak who has a disease that must be treated very carefully, I am annoyed by that fact. But do I get bothered that they have asked me? No.

    I'll honestly tell anyone anything they want to know. However, if their motivation for asking me is because they can't possibly understand how another person can hold different beliefs, then I'm pretty annoyed by them. So, I'll usually just answer their questions and explain why I don't believe in God. Usually, they'll react odd (because they can't logically refute my position) and will slowly move away and disengage from the conversation.

    And the first thought that passes through my mind is, "Here we go again, now I have to sit here and explain why I'm different from these judgmental, narrow-minded people who assume everyone should be the same, and treat me like some ostracized freak from another country (or better yet, another planet)."

    Anything else you want to know?
    Do you think that the bible/religious texts have any plausibility literally or figuratively?

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