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  1. #401
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Proof is fallible in the first place; so progress may be quite static. Maybe.
    whatever your criticism with rationality or emperical evedince, using the two methods is the only way to make a final determination about, well, anything.

    yeah, it doesnt work. if you're an illusion and you think you're real, then whatever you think you are, is false.

    The concept of hell has already been addressed.
    no, it really hasn't. i've heard lots of excuses being made and people geting all offended. however, no one has been able to remove it from the bible.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  2. #402
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    yeah, it doesnt work.
    Neither do American public education systems, apparently.

  3. #403
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Neither do American public education systems, apparently.
    cant think of anything else to say?
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  4. #404
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    cant think of anything else to say?
    “The reality of the other person lies not in what he reveals to you, but what he cannot reveal to you. Therefore, if you would understand him, listen not to what he says, but rather to what he does not say.” - Kahlil Gibran

    “Once you begin to believe there is help ''out there,'' you will know it to be true.” - Saint Bartholomew

    Good night.

  5. #405
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    1, 2, & 5 assume there isn't a clear general revelation in view of which men are without excuse for their unbelief.

    3 & 4 are more difficult, and are probably among those things that cannot be known without additional revelation. God could save such persons, but would he? I like to think he does.
    Perhaps it is too early but I have no idea what you said in that first part.

    I don't know. I would say crises of faith are good things. They prompt thinking and re-evaluation. However, this perhaps fits with your idea that people have stopped thinking in this new revival; I mean, what would happen if someone started thinking, but in their thinking, got too distracted and walked into the street as the light turned red, and got hit by a bus and died?

    It's strange. It's like Christianity puts a clock on you. If you don't do something before you die, you end up in eternal hellfire for the rest of your life. I don't know. Thinking too much about stuff you have to do before you die seems unhealthy.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #406
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    Seems to be a lot of focus on just one religion (or at least the major 3). They all stemmed from not having any other way to explain things years ago. But it would appear people still rely on faith for personal reasons. That is fine. It's just generally the INTP has a need to make rational sense so a lot of them don't find closure on the idea of having a religious faith.

    I've also found a lot of people just go along with it because of tradition and they think about it too deeply to give it much concern, but the INTP does because they're individualistic and analysts. Everyone draws from external stimuli, the INTP just wants to make sure their ideas are drawn from the things that make the most sense. Religion and faith do not make rational sense. The INTPs ideas might not be original but they probably try and contain more truth.

  7. #407
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    no, see, you have (1) heaven and (2) hell and then you die and where you go when you die depends upon the "choice" you made about god while alive.
    When it comes down to it Robert. You're just too caught up on a word. A word that you don't fully understand, nor do I understand. You dismiss the fact that there are lots of different interpretation on what hell actually is, and whether it's actually that much of a negative thing.

    For you.

    It's basically

    Christian: Hell is bad.
    Athiests: I'm choosing to go to hell.
    You: That's just wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Why?

    Frame it all in another way. The story that many christians often use: A child decides to leave his father because he doesn't believe in him anymore, this can be the same thing as the child choosing hell over love (God)

    Now the only thing I'll agree with you here is that according to that story, he may return after having left. That hell should not be an eternal place of damnation. But as I've said over and over again, nobody knows for certain what hell is and whether it's travelling to there is a permenant single-way destination.

    Some christians argue that it's not possible to return once a choice has been made, and I see some logic in that, but then I'd agree with you that it seems unfair to have millions of people have to make that choice before death. I'd be more inclined to believe that God is actually a forgiving individual that lets people make their own choices, once they have experienced him and are doing so in a rational mind (i.e. People losing faith in God when humanities is evil/deaths). For God to blaim these individual for being human seems kind of... wrong considering they are his own creation.

  8. #408
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    There is an amount to be gained from having even a speck of doubt in doctors and elevators. There is also an amount to be gained from having faith in them. When the latter outweighs the former, you make an investment.

    The question in the context of the OP is: Do you invest in this life, or the next? The religious individual finds that he may invest in both by having faith in God; for the amount sacrificed is minimal in comparison the amount gained.
    Would this be a good reason to believe?

    Sounds like an argument someone would use followed by Pascals Wagers. You can't force yourself to believe.

    yeah, it doesnt work. if you're an illusion and you think you're real, then whatever you think you are, is false.
    What?

    If everything in the world is false. What remains? There is thought.

    Can that thought be an illusion? Sure. But where is it coming from? Something must be real.

    You're talking about Brain in a Vat which while the person is an illusion. There's still a brain behind it all. There must always be something creating thought. It's like the matrix/vanilla sky and everything else.

    The only way you'd be able to argue that is if you claim that we're just programmed AI. But what then defines real? are programmed AIs any less real? When you think about it. The human body from an athiestic point of view, is just a biological robot that is programmed. Current understanding of consciousness is that it's just random neurons firing.

    End of the day, the only thing that we can be certain is that thought exists. Whether we'd be biologically or artificially programmed.

  9. #409
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Would this be a good reason to believe?

    Sounds like an argument someone would use followed by Pascals Wagers. You can't force yourself to believe.
    Right. Nor can you force anyone else to believe. It's a natural process.

    What?

    If everything in the world is false. What remains? There is thought.

    Can that thought be an illusion? Sure. But where is it coming from? Something must be real.

    You're talking about Brain in a Vat which while the person is an illusion. There's still a brain behind it all. There must always be something creating thought. It's like the matrix/vanilla sky and everything else.

    The only way you'd be able to argue that is if you claim that we're just programmed AI. But what then defines real? are programmed AIs any less real? When you think about it. The human body from an athiestic point of view, is just a biological robot that is programmed. Current understanding of consciousness is that it's just random neurons firing.

    End of the day, the only thing that we can be certain is that thought exists. Whether we'd be biologically or artificially programmed.
    Exactly. Logically, you may give the premises "I think, therefore I am"; and it may sound contradictory as both premises contain "I", and we are trying to prove the existence of I. If you really want to be nit-picky, then you must say "Thought, therefore I am". However, after the entailment, you cannot deduce anything about yourself except for the fact that you think. Even if you are an illusion, you are the victim of the illusion; and your thoughts are convoluted by it.

    Just snatched this off of Wikipedia:

    Neurophysiological studies in awake, behaving monkeys point to advanced cortical areas in prefrontal cortex and temporal lobes as carriers of neuronal correlates of consciousness. Christof Koch and Francis Crick argue that neuronal mechanisms of consciousness are intricately related to prefrontal cortex — cortical areas involved in higher cognitive function, affect, behavioral control, and planning. Rodolfo Llinas proposes that consciousness results from recurrent thalamo-cortical resonance where the specific thalamocortical systems (content) and the non-specific (centromedial thalamus) thalamocortical systems (context) interact in the gamma band frequency via time coincidence.
    Uhh.. yeah. I wish I could form an opinion about this; but the "time-coincidence" part is intriguing.

  10. #410
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Thinking too much about stuff you have to do before you die seems unhealthy.
    Couldn't one make an even bolder argument for the atheists' perspective on this? To the atheist, all you have is yourself and what you do with yourself in the given allotment of lifetime. This, coupled with a "I have to save humanity before I die" complex could be even more overwhelming. Meh, I digress; the same mentality can be had from an evangelic religion.

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