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  1. #31
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Hey cafe, have you guys ever tried out a liturgical church? I know for me much of evangelicalism just didn't connect with me growing up and plenty of it could be obnoxious, but I really found a spiritual home of sorts in liturgy. I started going to an Anglican church a few years ago in college, and while a liturgical church wasn't where I ever expected to find myself, I quickly fell in love with it. I loved the deep connection to history, the aesthetics of it all, the contemplative nature, the willingness to engage the mind with not just words but also symbolic acts, etc, and the vast theological depth of just about every line in the liturgy. It also made it so that, even when the sermon wasn't great, it didn't really matter all that much because of how much I was able to receive from the liturgy and the eucharist. Anyway, just a thought
    If we get to the point that we can't make ourselves go to our current church that's probably going to be the direction we head. We're going to our local Salvation Army chapel right now and like everything except the sermons/Sunday school lessons, including the pastor that gives said sermons/lessons. At least they don't spout fiscal conservative propaganda from the pulpit.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #32
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    How about Jesus Christ, who was reason embodied?

    Don't believe me? Look at the prologue to the Gospel of John in the original Greek.
    a complex idea built upon a hollow shell is a complex idea built upon a hollow shell
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    If we get to the point that we can't make ourselves go to our current church that's probably going to be the direction we head. We're going to our local Salvation Army chapel right now and like everything except the sermons/Sunday school lessons, including the pastor that gives said sermons/lessons. At least they don't spout fiscal conservative propaganda from the pulpit.
    That cool - I have a good friend who grew up in around a Salvation Army chapel when she was living out of a car with her single mom and siblings. Gotta love their commitment to the poor!
    "There are no answers, only choices."
    -Jennifer

  4. #34
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes but it seems you're assuming that religion by its very nature means irrationality, which is not necessarily the case. I already pointed to St. Thomas Aquinas before, but even the Islamic philosopher Averroes noted that faith and reason are means towards the same end - ie the truth.
    I probably seem to assume that in part for the sake of argument, but was trying to point out the issue of dismissal as "stupid" thinking that either differs and/or is irrational. There are a number of contributions to philosophy and reason related to religious thought. I don't entirely hold a position because it is a rather broad topic to reduce to a single position.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  5. #35
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I already pointed to St. Thomas Aquinas before, but even the Islamic philosopher Averroes noted that faith and reason are means towards the same end - ie the truth.
    In the same time, Ibn Rushd (Averroes) noticed that faith and reason can lead to conflicting solutions -most of the time, he said-, and hence, do not belong to the same "world", to the same "sphere".

    Anyway.

    I am ENTP and I am a strong atheist. The cultural aspects of religion are sometimes interesting, if not impressive, but epistemologically, well... religion is not my cup of tea AT ALL. It's not that I despise religious people (and technically, I often know religions very well, their history, structure and ethos), it's rather that "faith" is somewhat a mistery, something totally unknown and alien to me. I do not think I'm really biased against religious people, it's rather that I do not understand them, and vice-versa. But what I can't really stand is deliberate proselytism: for me it's the greatest possible offense; live and let live.

    I tend to think that ultimately, everything within this material world can be explained thanks to reason, that there is an obvious logical explaination to everything. Even if this contradicts a little bit with Feyerabend's assumption that irrationality cannot be rationally dismissed (See also Gdel's incompleteness theorems).

    ---

    Tonight, I had a conversation with my mother and my brother. She told me one cannot understand the universe through reason or pure thinking only. I just answered "why"? The fact is, I did not really understand the meaning of her sentence: it seems so counter-intuitive, at least to me.
    Having met a lot of religious people, I'd be tempted to say that most of the time, they believe because they don't know, or don't want to know. It may be whether because they live happier without any form of intellectual curiosity, or whether because they lack the intellectual skills to grasp new concepts, especially scientific or conceptual ones. Their perception of universe seems rather based on a "general impression" (sometimes very blurry), on an aesthetic experience rather than knowledge or a careful and methodical analysis of surrounding phenomenons.

    I'd say we do not perceive the universe the same way, that we do not see trees or bees the same way, that we do not savor apples or wine the same way, that we do not hear music the same way. Sometimes, when I talk to my mother, it's a little bit like if she was some kind of alien intelligence. It's disconcerting somewhat: she's so close and so far away for me, both in the same time. We speak the same language, yet the meaning we put behind the same words is not the same.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 12-26-2009 at 08:23 AM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #36
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    How about Jesus Christ, who was reason embodied?

    Don't believe me? Look at the prologue to the Gospel of John in the original Greek.
    Propaganda to make a book more appealing to Gnostics doesn't confer a quality on a figure who may or may not have tangibly existed.

  7. #37
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    While I was telling my story, I totally forgot to answer to this thread.

    So no, I do not "hate" religion. For me, it's just a sociological phenomena (like ideologies, economy and politics), and as such, it can be meticulously and scientifically analyzed, especially if I have to behave under special circumstances.

    But that's all.

    ---

    Maybe, if I had grown up into a society where religion is still a major aspect of life (the USA for instance), I could have hated religion. Fortunately, that's not the case.
    Once again, the only element of religion I find to be deeply dishonorable is the deliberate manipulation of weak minds, even (or especially) if it's "for their own good".
    What one believes should only remain a private matter, even if it's not forbidden to discuss why and what one believes (or not!).

    When for instance I say Jesus, Solomon or David probably never existed at all, or that Mohammed was a despicable psychopath, I'm not provocative, I'm just exposing what I really think. I'm honest, but that doesn't mean I want my interlocutors to blindly agree with me; not at all in fact, I'd probably be disappointed. As long as nobody gets hurt in the process, I have the right to think what I want just as they have the right to think the opposite, capice?
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 12-26-2009 at 08:26 AM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #38
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    If you do not allow the explanation for anything religious to be "Because God said so," everything begins to make sense.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #39
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    If you do not allow the explanation for anything religious to be "Because God said so," everything begins to make sense.
    is that in support of becasue god says so or agianst it?
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  10. #40
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    is that in support of becasue god says so or agianst it?
    I don't know.

    If you look on a very basic level religions very much so follow Darwin's theories; strong ones survive. Is it because of some God-given rules? I really have no idea, and I think it's kind of beside the point.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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