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  1. #331
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What do you think provides salvation in this life or the next?
    i dont believe in an afterlife but if there were one i'd hope we were judged, rewarded or punished based upon or actions and not our beliefs.
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  2. #332
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    However, I am very suspect of any position that says someone can be saved if they don't accept Christ before their physical death. I've found no reason to accept this as true and much evidence against it. No one is outside the grace of God; he can and will save whom he pleases, but everyone among the saved will come to realize the importance, the necessity, of the atonement.
    Why, if God seems to emphasize one's eternal soul over the temporary physical realm? Again. I'm young and confused and not a Christian. I could get hit by a bus tomorrow and die an agonizing death, and then burn in agonizing hellfire for eternity because of your theory. Physical death is such an arbitrary deadline.

    Here's a list of other people who would burn in everlasting hellfire:

    1) those in the wrong place/wrong time to learn to accept Christ
    2) those who did good in the world but did not dedicate their good works to Christ
    3) Babies and young children who died without an understanding of Christ
    4) Older people who, through whatever mental deficiencies, could not accept Christ
    5) People with a crises of faith who just happened to die in the middle of it

    Wow, that seems awfully unjust. I don't think I could love a God who would do that. Perhaps I will just have to martyr myself after death and burn in agonizing hellfire forever for my beliefs.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #333
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    Yup, it's f* nutz'!

  4. #334
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    i dont care what erasums or moore had to say and i dont care what james had to say in one particular parts of the bible. i'm concenred with the parts i have objections with, namely the parts which say i'm going to hell becasue i dont believe like you. you can get mad at me all you want for pointing that out. it doesnt remove those passages from the bible, however.
    Quotes from the bible.

    1. Are they really valid? Fine, we'll assume they are valid.
    2. What is hell? This is where you get multiple interpretations.
    3. Do people choose to go to hell? According to Christians, Yes.
    4. Are you certain about the system how hell works? Interpretation.
    5. Are people stuck eternally in Hell? Interpretation once more.

    Otherwise why would Pegus have mentioned a while back that the nature of Hell is still questioned? If it was so black and white, there would be no need for interpretation. And if you claim that the text clearly states that hell is a fiery location (citation please) and thus should be taken literally, then I ask you, what about the creationism story? Noahs Ark? Adam and Eve and what not?

    6. How do you know which parts are meant to be taken literally/metaphorically?
    7. How do you know which parts are interpretations or exact words from God? (Back to stage 1)

    For example an interpretation for Q number 2.
    If hell is just abscence of God, then... well is hell really such a negative thing to be? Christians will claim Yes, Athiests will currently say No. They don't mind slipping off into nothingness since it's what they expected in the first place.

  5. #335
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Quotes from the bible.

    1. Are they really valid? Fine, we'll assume they are valid.
    2. What is hell? This is where you get multiple interpretations.
    3. Do people choose to go to hell? According to Christians, Yes.
    4. Are you certain about the system how hell works? Interpretation.
    5. Are people stuck eternally in Hell? Interpretation once more.

    Otherwise why would Pegus have mentioned a while back that the nature of Hell is still questioned? If it was so black and white, there would be no need for interpretation. And if you claim that the text clearly states that hell is a fiery location (citation please) and thus should be taken literally, then I ask you, what about the creationism story? Noahs Ark? Adam and Eve and what not?

    6. How do you know which parts are meant to be taken literally/metaphorically?
    7. How do you know which parts are interpretations or exact words from God? (Back to stage 1)

    For example an interpretation for Q number 2.
    If hell is just abscence of God, then... well is hell really such a negative thing to be? Christians will claim Yes, Athiests will currently say No. They don't mind slipping off into nothingness since it's what they expected in the first place.
    The fact that there is so much confusion arising from the bible, from its contradictions and lack of clarity, is a PROBLEM, it's not a defense of religion. To recognize this problem and still be a christian is a bad thing, not a good one. Sorry if I didnt answer any of your specific questions, but I think it's pointless to give in depth comments on a book(s) that don't even agree with one another.

    PS - this still doesnt mean any of the things I've listed aren't in the bible.
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    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  6. #336
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    The fact that there is so much confusion arising from the bible, from its contradictions and lack of clarity, is a PROBLEM, it's not a defense of religion. To recognize this problem and still be a christian is a bad thing, not a good one. Sorry if I didnt answer any of your specific questions, but I think it's pointless to give in depth comments on a book(s) that don't even agree with one another.

    PS - this still doesnt mean any of the things I've listed aren't in the bible.
    I don't think this captures the essence of faith at all. Contradictions may not exist so much in terms of physics or natural laws. But, in human affairs and affairs of the heart and soul; contradiction, opposition, and conflict is the rule. The bible need not be literally true. The problem with those who profess the truth of the bible are simply not confident that it can stand on its own. Which I think it can. The New Testament provides a wealth of life-affirming spiritual insight.

    Faith is all about grasping the absurdity of it all and CHOOSING to believe anyway. This is what makes faith interesting and compelling. Pointing out flaws in the bible does nothing to diminish the impact of the Truth it contains. And even an atheist can acknowledge that it makes profound philosophical statements about the power of Love and aspects of human existence.

    I say this as an agnostic, mind you. Yet, I am fascinated by faith. Faith is the only approach that respects the terror and awesomeness of Reality while maintaining significance. Any attempt to safeguard significance and meaning is essentially a religious impulse.

    Instead of trying to repudiate and tear down religious belief, I would suggest trying to find a way to live in harmony with those who adhere to it. Just as I would recommend to those who espouse a particular religious belief system that repudiates those who live without a central religious orientation.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  7. #337
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    I don't think this captures the essence of faith at all. Contradictions may not exist so much in terms of physics or natural laws. But, in human affairs and affairs of the heart and soul; contradiction, opposition, and conflict is the rule.
    Yeah but we aren't talking about contraiditions of the heart and soul, are we. We're talking about ideas, and the diea of a loving god that sends peopel to hell to suffer forever, that makes about as much sense as a 3 sided square. The very defintions used to describe it make it an absolute impossibility.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  8. #338
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    Yeah but we aren't talking about contraiditions of the heart and soul, are we. We're talking about ideas, and the diea of a loving god that sends peopel to hell to suffer forever, that makes about as much sense as a 3 sided square. The very defintions used to describe it make it an absolute impossibility.
    Why must God meet your standard of what makes sense? Also, many mainstream Christian sects have no belief in Hell as a place of torment. Nor, am I certain of its biblical authenticity as a concept. I would like to know from the Christians if Jesus makes statements about Hell? I consider the words of Christ to have the most spiritual resonance.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  9. #339
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Why must God meet your standard of what makes sense? Also, many mainstream Christian sects have no belief in Hell as a place of torment. Nor, am I certain of its biblical authenticity as a concept. I would like to know from the Christians if Jesus makes statements about Hell? I consider the words of Christ to have the most spiritual resonance.
    wow!!!!

    its not about god making sense according to my defintion, its about the defintion christians give being (1) a complete contradiction, and (2) a very horrible, very bad, very cruel idea
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  10. #340
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Why must God meet your standard of what makes sense? Also, many mainstream Christian sects have no belief in Hell as a place of torment. Nor, am I certain of its biblical authenticity as a concept. I would like to know from the Christians if Jesus makes statements about Hell? I consider the words of Christ to have the most spiritual resonance.
    Jesus said "gehenna" a lot in the Gospels. Take that for what you will.

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