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  1. #291
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    then i guess its a pretty stupid book to follow
    Why do you think that not all christians are creationists?

    Because not all christians believe that everything within the bible is literal and understand that some parts may be interpretation. Then there are people who believe in the christian God, but do not attend church or believe in the bible. What are they?

    You still have to answer the question. How are you so certain that your interpretation/understanding of the bible is the truth?

  2. #292
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Why do you think that not all christians are creationists?

    Because not all christians believe that everything within the bible is literal and understand that some parts may be interpretation. Then there are people who believe in the christian God, but do not attend church or believe in the bible. What are they?
    if someone finds fault with the bible and continues to "beleive" in it i'd say that's an obvious need for secuirty and the expense of rational thought.

    You still have to answer the question. How are you so certain that your interpretation/understanding of the bible is the truth?
    I don't know the truth about god. I don't think anyone can. But that doesn't prevent me from noticing that the words the bible uses to describe god are contradictory.
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  3. #293
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    more presumption! who in their right mind wouldn't want to be happy and live in love? its quite insulting for you to say that people who don't think like you have rejected the truth instead of admiting truth can't exist if it contradicts itself.

    and no, you calling god loving does not make it so. all i've done is take the word "love" and look at his actions and see that they don't match. he's god. he could snap his fingers and forgive everyone. thats not what he does.
    I've not presumed anything, I do think you are becoming defensive. I'm interested in carrying on this dialogue but maybe you need a chance to cool your jets, I'm not seeking to undermine or attack you. Just so you know. Neither is it my intention to insult you.

    What truth is contradicting itself? Who doesnt think like me and what way are they rejecting truth?

    OK, explain to me how the supposed actions of God do not match love. I dont understand that one, he creates everything for the enjoyment of man, creates a law to underwrite the deal, arrives in person when that gets so, so badly obscured and endures the very worst its possible for humanity to deal out all of which without deciding to have a fire sale and start from scratch.

    Now, forgiveness, there's lots of evidence of the forgiving nature of God, consider the life and ministry of Jesus and his example, even if you dont believe his words look at the example, he could have had his people take up arms at any time, wreck havoc and start war like the expected Hebrew messiah but he didnt. Not even when they came to apprehend him. No instead he heals the ear of the soldier who has it cut of by one of Jesus' supporters.

    I just dont understand were this unforgiving, condemning figure comes from, it doesnt reflect the reality at all but its instead a straw man which you've created to fit the frame and argument you're choosing to field.

    No personally that kind of boundless and unlimited generosity is sure beyond what humanity is capable of, despite believing its a good idea I know I'm not capable of it, its counter intuitive. In fact by human standards it could be considered as too forgiving, capricious because it rewards the virtuous and villainous all the same provided there is genuine repentence and remorse.

  4. #294
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    if someone finds fault with the bible and continues to "beleive" in it i'd say that's an obvious need for secuirty and the expense of rational thought.


    I don't know the truth about god. I don't think anyone can. But that doesn't prevent me from noticing that the words the bible uses to describe god are contradictory.
    Yeah, what's the core text of rationalism BTW?

    Didnt Aristotle and Socrates believe in the "natural slave", neither of them condemned slavery.

  5. #295
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've not presumed anything, I do think you are becoming defensive. I'm interested in carrying on this dialogue but maybe you need a chance to cool your jets, I'm not seeking to undermine or attack you. Just so you know. Neither is it my intention to insult you.

    What truth is contradicting itself? Who doesnt think like me and what way are they rejecting truth?

    OK, explain to me how the supposed actions of God do not match love. I dont understand that one, he creates everything for the enjoyment of man, creates a law to underwrite the deal, arrives in person when that gets so, so badly obscured and endures the very worst its possible for humanity to deal out all of which without deciding to have a fire sale and start from scratch.

    Now, forgiveness, there's lots of evidence of the forgiving nature of God, consider the life and ministry of Jesus and his example, even if you dont believe his words look at the example, he could have had his people take up arms at any time, wreck havoc and start war like the expected Hebrew messiah but he didnt. Not even when they came to apprehend him. No instead he heals the ear of the soldier who has it cut of by one of Jesus' supporters.

    I just dont understand were this unforgiving, condemning figure comes from, it doesnt reflect the reality at all but its instead a straw man which you've created to fit the frame and argument you're choosing to field.

    No personally that kind of boundless and unlimited generosity is sure beyond what humanity is capable of, despite believing its a good idea I know I'm not capable of it, its counter intuitive. In fact by human standards it could be considered as too forgiving, capricious because it rewards the virtuous and villainous all the same provided there is genuine repentence and remorse.
    this generosity is only extended to people who think like you do. its not extended to me.
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  6. #296
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Kai and Lark. Both of you seem like decent people. And this illustrates my number 2 problem with religion. Religion sperates people. Some people don't care about religious topics, but many people, a very large number of people, feel exactly as I do. They may not be as vocal as I but the dislike and distrust is still the same. So despite having a bad idea at its foundation, christinaity is also a force that seperates people and creates problems.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  7. #297
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    this generosity is only extended to people who think like you do. its not extended to me.
    No, what makes you think that?

    The "Good News" is exactly that it extends to everyone, I dont know the chapter and verse but most of the letters and acts were taken up with making this point, God had not favourites, all the beliefs about choosen people and most favoured races or tribes or nations, all those things meaning the same thing, were bunk, especially since the choosen people had crucified their own messiah (worst reception ever :p ).

  8. #298
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    Kai and Lark. Both of you seem like decent people. And this illustrates my number 2 problem with religion. Religion sperates people. Some people don't care about religious topics, but many people, a very large number of people, feel exactly as I do. They may not be as vocal as I but the dislike and distrust is still the same. So despite having a bad idea at its foundation, christinaity is also a force that seperates people and creates problems.
    No it doesnt, not properly so, you could as easily say that football is evil because it encourages people to divide and support their local or college or whatever teams.

    I welcome your opinions, I'm glad people are around who are vocal. Although I'll confess I hate street preachers and think they're a nuisance most of the time.

  9. #299
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No, what makes you think that?

    The "Good News" is exactly that it extends to everyone, I dont know the chapter and verse but most of the letters and acts were taken up with making this point, God had not favourites, all the beliefs about choosen people and most favoured races or tribes or nations, all those things meaning the same thing, were bunk, especially since the choosen people had crucified their own messiah (worst reception ever :p ).
    no, see, i dont believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior, or how ever you want to put it. so for this simple fact, a belief, I am supposed to go to hell and suffer forever? For what? A belief. And you, you pick the right god so you get to go to heaven and all the rest of us go to hell.

    I can't see how I'm either supposed to like that or accept it.




    sports dont drive people apart quite the same way religion does......
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  10. #300
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The fairness of prosthelytizing. My religion doesn't do that. It seems with prothelytizing, you have two scenarios:

    1. the gospel is important for salvation, and therefore those many, many people who did not know about it for a long time after it was written (pretty much, anyone outside of the Mediterranean for a long time) were unfairly punished because they were ignorant, not by choice, but by place and timing
    Have you considered the possibility that they are ignorant by choice?

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