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  1. #21
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    Where is she assuming that? I appreciated toonia's post and thought she was pretty intellectually honest. And while I'm religious myself, I can still agree that many people use religion for the ends she mentioned, unfortunate though that may be.
    "There are no answers, only choices."
    -Jennifer

  2. #22
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I already pointed to St. Thomas Aquinas. But here's Justin Martyr, who was an early Christian figure:

    "Reason directs those who are truly pious and philosophical to honour and love only what is true, declining to follow traditional opinions, if these be worthless. For not only does sound reason direct us to refuse the guidance of those who did or taught anything wrong, but it is incumbent on the lover of truth, by all means, and if death be threatened, even before his own life, to choose to do and say what is right."
    still waiting for you to name one precept central to christianity that embodies the spirit of reason
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    still waiting for you to name one precept central to christianity that embodies the spirit of reason
    1. Not what you asked at first.
    2. Embodies the spirit of reason? What are you looking for here? This seems like an absurd criterion for determining whether a religion is reasonable. It really seems like you're just trying to set up a criterion for judgement that is sufficiently strict so as to justify your desired conclusion.
    "There are no answers, only choices."
    -Jennifer

  4. #24
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    1. Not what you asked at first.
    2. Embodies the spirit of reason? What are you looking for here? This seems like an absurd criterion for determining whether a religion is reasonable. It really seems like you're just trying to set up a criterion for judgement that is sufficiently strict so as to justify your desired conclusion.
    yeah because it really matters so much how i phrase a question.
    no religious thought holds up to the test of reason.
    see, an honest person starts with facts and proceeds to conclusion.
    thats the flaw of religion, their failure to do this.
    and then you get into speific examples:

    1- christian view of hell (calling it just)
    2- christian view of justice
    3- christian view of "free will" (free will is supposed to be immune from punishment or reward)
    4- christianity = moral example yet bible endorses slavery and mysogeny, genocide and discrimination
    5- original sin (god creats flawed creature, blames creature for flaws)
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    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My INTP and I are both Christians, met at Bible college in fact, but we pretty much find going to church torturous. The music is good sometimes and sometimes I find people that I enjoy getting to know but oftentimes the sermons are unbelievably dumb and, being Evangelical, they want to get some kind of emotional response from people. Highly uncomfortable. There is no way we would go if we didn't believe in God and believe that he commanded believers to meet regularly for worship. Even then sometimes we can't make ourselves do it.
    Hey cafe, have you guys ever tried out a liturgical church? I know for me much of evangelicalism just didn't connect with me growing up and plenty of it could be obnoxious, but I really found a spiritual home of sorts in liturgy. I started going to an Anglican church a few years ago in college, and while a liturgical church wasn't where I ever expected to find myself, I quickly fell in love with it. I loved the deep connection to history, the aesthetics of it all, the contemplative nature, the willingness to engage the mind with not just words but also symbolic acts, etc, and the vast theological depth of just about every line in the liturgy. It also made it so that, even when the sermon wasn't great, it didn't really matter all that much because of how much I was able to receive from the liturgy and the eucharist. Anyway, just a thought
    "There are no answers, only choices."
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    yeah because it really matters so much how i phrase a question.
    It matters if you ask one thing and then wait expectantly for people to answer something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    no religious thought holds up to the test of reason.
    see, an honest person starts with facts and proceeds to conclusion.
    thats the flaw of religion, their failure to do this.
    and then you get into speific examples:

    1- christian view of hell (calling it just)
    2- christian view of justice
    3- christian view of "free will" (free will is supposed to be immune from punishment or reward)
    4- christianity = moral example yet bible endorses slavery and mysogeny, genocide and discrimination
    5- original sin (god creats flawed creature, blames creature for flaws)
    This just isn't the case. The idea that "no religious thought holds up to the test of reason" is absurdly absolute. The notion of starting with 'facts' and proceeding is extremely philosophically problematic, though in terms of method, Christian thought does start with things it takes to be known and proceeds from there. Your understanding of epistemology seems nonexistent, which makes me less that excited about being patronized over my supposed lack of epistemic grounding.

    As far as your cited examples, obviously many of them could be conversations that would go far beyond any possible scope of this thread (ok, we're probably already outside of the scope of this thread... sorry about that). That said, it seems clear that you're not trying to reasonably understand Christianity before judging it.

    To give a couple of examples, in your third point you arbitrarily assert what free will is supposed to be and act like it's a big problem for Christianity. I don't think any Christian would have a problem with saying, "Ok, sure, that sort of free will doesn't exactly exist, but a different sort, where we're at least able to make choices, does. Which, as it happens, is what we meant by free will all along, along with nearly all of the philosophic tradition as I understand it." Also, in your fifth point you assert that Christians believe God made flawed creatures, which we don't.

    Anyway, if you'd like to understand Christianity, I have no doubt that there are enough of us around here who can help you do so, but until then please understand if we don't like getting slapped by mostly baseless and often hardly meaningful assertions.
    "There are no answers, only choices."
    -Jennifer

  7. #27
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    hey, your refusal to acknowldge the more sinister aspects of chritiaity doesn't make me dense or misguided. just makes you dishonest. sending people to hell, forever, because they "sinned", becasue they don't believe in your god, is quite simply one of the meanest, cruelest things i've ever heard.

    ok,

    you don't get to define free will. if its motivated by punishment or reward its not a real choice, only a reaction to punishment/reward. i know how you people pride yourself on your "individuality" but you're really not making any sort of moral distinction. try doing the right thing simply because it's right.

    christinaty most certinly deems people as being flawed. your whole system of justice is built upon that premise.
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    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  8. #28
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    [I'm going to take a break, and then respond if it still seems wise]
    "There are no answers, only choices."
    -Jennifer

  9. #29
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    [I'm going to take a break, and then respond if it still seems wise]
    you can't fault me for being critical to religion on a thread about hating religion. i'd really like to see you defend your god sending people to hell, i dont think you will be able to, not intellligently, since all the court systems down here (enlightend ones) understand justice, ie:

    1- the punihsment must fit the crime
    2- so no eternal punishment for finite crimes
    3- each person must pay for their crime,
    you can't send someone to jail in your place
    4- so jesus giving you a get out of hell free card
    because he absorbed your sins, is not right
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  10. #30
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    still waiting for you to name one precept central to christianity that embodies the spirit of reason
    How about Jesus Christ, who was reason embodied?

    Don't believe me? Look at the prologue to the Gospel of John in the original Greek.

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