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  1. #251
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    i dont like church and i think religious people are idiots. thinking this way seems to be a function of being intelligent. and speaing of intelligence, whats really sad is that small percentage of really bright people and all the excuses and rationlizations they make i order to "keep believing".
    This mindset is born from a groupthink that is no better, nor more rational, than those who follow religiosity without question. 'Tis tribalism.

    Ask questions. Try not to be presumptuous please.

  2. #252
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    "Fairness" is a man-made construct and God (or whatever deity you believe in) never promised to be "fair". And also, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not "fair".

    In addition, Christianity is not the only religion on this planet. To condemn all faiths because you don't understand one particular faith is ignorant and hardly "fair".
    I am asking about it because I don't understand it and it is something my religion doesn't seem to do.

    @Night: I think the reason Robert only knows about Fundamentalists is because they tend to be the loudest.
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  3. #253
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I am asking about it because I don't understand it and it is something my religion doesn't seem to do.

    @Night: I think the reason Robert only knows about Fundamentalists is because they tend to be the loudest.
    It seems hardly fair to assume that because they take some of the worst parts of the bible literally, that they are then the honest and correct interpretations of the bible. I don't see the logic behind that at all. Just the mindset with the belief: Someone makes grand claims about themselves, there's a chance that they are just lying. However when switched with the other scenario: Why would someone make such negative statement about themselves and reality? They must be telling the truth. Why? Because it doesn't make sense for people to push forward a negative view of reality when human nature desires a positive environment.

    If he wants to believe that the fundamental approach is the true approach to christianity. I'm afraid that he'll have to prove it with some evidence or logical argument. The one above does not constitute as a logical argument unfortunately because the reality may be that the most harshest sounding descriptions may not be true. It'd be wrong to assume based on that reasoning.

    Multiple times he ignored Larks message that the things written in the bible has been channeled by mediums and prophets, that it has authority but might still have an element of interpretation within it. Ignored the fact that the bible has undergone many translations/written by man even if divinely inspired/further work written by man based on earlier interpretations of those who were divinely inspired and lastly ignored the possability that the bible may have had sections added to it/removed from it that were not originally there. Considering it's been 2000 Years... there's alot of things that could have potentially gone wrong there. For this reason, there are christians (though they are probably seen as the cherry-pickers or not being christians) who while believing in God, don't believe that the bible contains the whole truth about his nature.

    The whole thing about conscience is just... meh. Considering that so many different people have different ideas of what is considered as moral or not. For example: Some people believe deep within their hearts that an eye for an eye is an acceptable form of justice.

    The just-world phenomenon, also called the just-world theory, just-world fallacy, just-world effect, or just-world hypothesis, refers to the tendency for people to want to believe that the world is just so strongly that when they witness an otherwise inexplicable injustice they will rationalize it by searching for things that the victim might have done to deserve it. This deflects their anxiety, and lets them continue to believe the world is a just place, but often at the expense of blaming victims for things that were not, objectively, their fault.
    While others believe it only creates further problems in society and doesn't generate peace. But I'm sure most people here know that, we are in the philosophy section after all. It's the very basic study of ethics. =/

  4. #254
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I am asking about it because I don't understand it and it is something my religion doesn't seem to do.
    I'm confused about this post - what exactly are you asking about in response to what I wrote? The fairness? Which part doesn't your religion do?

  5. #255
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I am asking about it because I don't understand it and it is something my religion doesn't seem to do.

    @Night: I think the reason Robert only knows about Fundamentalists is because they tend to be the loudest.
    Sorry, I guess you are talking about the concept of judgment?

    I am no expert, and I don't think any of us are, but with Christianity I think the general rule is that you are judged on not only the sum of all your actions but the sum of your intentions. Meaning, what's in your heart.

    If you were hit by a bus tomorrow after having robbed a bank, I don't believe that means you will go straight to hell. I think you are judged as a complete person. In some sects, there is a period of repentance and purgatory. In some sects, entry into heaven requires accepting Jesus as your personal savior. But I think everyone agrees that a person who is generally good, even after doing something "bad", will not burn forever.

    But that's just what I have observed from the different groups. I could be wrong.

  6. #256
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I'm confused about this post - what exactly are you asking about in response to what I wrote? The fairness? Which part doesn't your religion do?
    The fairness of prosthelytizing. My religion doesn't do that. It seems with prothelytizing, you have two scenarios:

    1. the gospel is important for salvation, and therefore those many, many people who did not know about it for a long time after it was written (pretty much, anyone outside of the Mediterranean for a long time) were unfairly punished because they were ignorant, not by choice, but by place and timing

    2. The gospel isn't important to salvation and is only if one knows about it (by virtue that those who are ignorant cannot be blamed), so therefore spreading the gospel would be considered a disservice because you were causing more people to not reach salvation because they wouldn't accept the gospel (they had been living happily for hundreds, maybe thousands of years without it, it's only natural that they be skeptical.)
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #257
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The fairness of prosthelytizing. My religion doesn't do that. It seems with prothelytizing, you have two scenarios:

    1. the gospel is important for salvation, and therefore those many, many people who did not know about it for a long time after it was written (pretty much, anyone outside of the Mediterranean for a long time) were unfairly punished because they were ignorant, not by choice, but by place and timing

    2. The gospel isn't important to salvation and is only if one knows about it (by virtue that those who are ignorant cannot be blamed), so therefore spreading the gospel would be considered a disservice because you were causing more people to not reach salvation because they wouldn't accept the gospel (they had been living happily for hundreds, maybe thousands of years without it, it's only natural that they be skeptical.)
    Ahhh, yes. I have had the same questions myself. Unfortunately, I cannot answer any of that, since I don't belong to an organized religion.

    As far as scenario #1: As easy as it is to praise a "creator", many Christians believe that salvation is only through accepting Jesus, not through good behavior. As a child, I spent countless hours wondering what happens to people who were raised by wolves (or something similar) and loved and respected the nature that surrounded them but never heard the name Jesus. Would they burn?

    I still don't know the answer to that question, and I don't think anyone does. I'm sure everyone has their theories.

    My father is really religious and he feels that yes, those people will burn. that's why he feels it's his duty as a Christian to spread the word to every and any one. He can't sit back and let people perish. Because he was enlightened, he can't sit on that knowledge and not try to save everyone he can.

    Whether it's fair or not, that's the way it is, in his eyes. He figures that God has reasons that are way beyond our comprehension.

    And scenario # 2: I think people who try to spread the information feel that they are spreading joy. That's ok, you may not go to hell if you don't know the words of Christ, but that you actually won't find fulfillment in this life on earth either. I think they think they are doing you a favor, the same way that people were excited about the spreading the internet or drive thru atm's or clean drinking water.

    But I could be wrong. I truly don't know.

  8. #258
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Ahhh, yes. I have had the same questions myself. Unfortunately, I cannot answer any of that, since I don't belong to an organized religion.

    As far as scenario #1: As easy as it is to praise a "creator", many Christians believe that salvation is only through accepting Jesus, not through good behavior. As a child, I spent countless hours wondering what happens to people who were raised by wolves (or something similar) and loved and respected the nature that surrounded them but never heard the name Jesus. Would they burn?

    I still don't know the answer to that question, and I don't think anyone does. I'm sure everyone has their theories.

    My father is really religious and he feels that yes, those people will burn. that's why he feels it's his duty as a Christian to spread the word to every and any one. He can't sit back and let people perish. Because he was enlightened, he can't sit on that knowledge and not try to save everyone he can.

    Whether it's fair or not, that's the way it is, in his eyes. He figures that God has reasons that are way beyond our comprehension.
    That certainly is quite an interesting view to hold. Rather than rejecting the view that it's not compatible with a loving God, he accepted that God had reasons for letting these people perish?

    Hm... I could certainly imagine how that might work. People that perish motivate other people to spread the news and live accordingly. It's kinda cynical of human nature though, that you need people to fall before others will help, but at the same time when I think of the news and everything. I can easily see how it holds true.

    Then there's the other theories as suggested about how people who don't know are given the opportunity to acknowledge God upon their death, or if too young, sent to a different location... Yeah.

    Were those just theories or were they based on interpretation from somewhere within the bible? Maybe someone can explain where these ideas come from.

    And scenario # 2: I think people who try to spread the information feel that they are spreading joy. That's ok, you may not go to hell if you don't know the words of Christ, but that you actually won't find fulfillment in this life on earth either. I think they think they are doing you a favor, the same way that people were excited about the spreading the internet or drive thru atm's or clean drinking water.

    But I could be wrong. I truly don't know.
    Perhaps it's similar to the whole eastern religion concepts where while one might not end up perishing, you won't reach fufillment without knowing the truth. When you think about it from a religious point of view, is going into limbo-land really that much better than going to hell? If you assume that the greatest thing is to be with God. So yeah, what you wrote up there definitely makes alot of sense.

  9. #259
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    "Fairness" is a man-made construct and God (or whatever deity you believe in) never promised to be "fair". And also, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not "fair".
    The idea that God isn't fair is a man-made construct, as well

  10. #260
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Another view I've been looking at lately says that all the age ended in AD70, and when the temple was destroyed, the Law that condemned man passed with it. (So all the "turn or burn" warnings were really for the people in THAT age; many of whom saw Jesus rather than hearing about him thousands of years later through the lens of a tumultuous Church history). This would explain the passages where Jesus said the Coming would be "soon", and that they were running a race to "salvation".
    Problem is, it seems like another "unorthodox" novel interpretation. Still, it seems to be the only one that explains all these questions, and makes it truly "Good News".
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