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  1. #241
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I apologize if I offended you.
    well, thank you. i appreciate you saying that. but how else would you expect some to feel, besides being offended, if they were told they were going to suffer and go to hell forever, because they had the wrong idea about god than you did??? seriously.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    What's bullshit? Certainly not Christianity!?
    Well that is a sarcastic play on Tertullian's famous phrase: "I believe because it's absurd."

    Here's the rest:
    "The Son of God was crucified: I am not ashamed--because it is shameful.
    The Son of God died: it is immediately credible--because it is silly.
    He was buried, and rose again: it is certain--because it is impossible."

  3. #243
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    What if I did believe that? Would that make you more or less inclined to want to believe it too?
    but the point is you don't. how come the only way you can defend yourself is by talking about silly hypotheticals you don't even believe in????
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  4. #244
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I think the point is with Robert's thing is that infinite punishment for finite crime seems ridiculous because, well, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow and not have a chance to reconcile anything with God. How is that fair? I'm very young, not even legally an adult, not mentally and emotionally mature. Judging me on just this very short lifetime, through ages where one is very likely to be thoughtless, just seems... well... unfair.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #245
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I think the point is with Robert's thing is that infinite punishment for finite crime seems ridiculous because, well, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow and not have a chance to reconcile anything with God. How is that fair? I'm very young, not even legally an adult, not mentally and emotionally mature. Judging me on just this very short lifetime, through ages where one is very likely to be thoughtless, just seems... well... unfair.
    you're right. but no religous person wants to feel that their beliefs are wrong. no matter what evidence is presented. thats how you wind up with one of the follwing defenses:

    1- my god is god and can therefor do no wrong
    2- it may seem unfair but god is fair and its a mystery that only god understands
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  6. #246
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Hey guys, I don't want to overstep my bounds or anything, but I question how much good's being accomplished at the moment. How would you all feel about putting a damper on the conversation for a bit and leaving it for later?
    OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I'm just thinking of the idea of Christianity being a prosthelytizing religion. It would seem that by prothelytizing, Christians are actually doing the rest of the world a disservice.
    If ignorance of the gospel weren't harmful, then Christians would be doing the world a disservice by proselytizing.

  7. #247
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I think the point is with Robert's thing is that infinite punishment for finite crime seems ridiculous because, well, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow and not have a chance to reconcile anything with God. How is that fair? I'm very young, not even legally an adult, not mentally and emotionally mature. Judging me on just this very short lifetime, through ages where one is very likely to be thoughtless, just seems... well... unfair.
    OK, OK, I've only read this page and I'm not going back through the entire thread, so please dont think I'm targetting your post in particular I'm just going to use it as representative of a particular point of view.

    OK, please, please, please can we dispense with the anthropmorphism? God is not a bearded old conservative who sits in the clouds dispensing rough justice capraciously for the most minor of offenses. This perspective is ancient, its existence is a legacy of the development of humankind, culture and psyche (perhaps of God too if you believe Jung's reckoning about reciprocity between God, his creation and humankind).

    Its only popular now with the adversaries of religion who find it easier to argue with a non-existent worst possible or degenerate variety than what is really there.

    There is no infinite punishment for finite crimes, God is a perfect paragon of proportionality, how do I know because its repeatedly indicated that God is Just and that is what it is to be Just. When humanity was made up of warring tribes capable of no proportionality in their vengence God's law was discerned to be an eye for an eye, now in more civil times we can tell that would leave everyone blind but it sure beats the lives of an entire village for an eye, you know? Later when God put in an appearence as Jesus he outlined his own practice of unmitigated forgiveness, generosity and love. That's the norm.

    There's no one condemned to hell who has not done it to themselves!! Imagine you have a hatred for a specific sort of person would you really want to spend any time with them? No, hell is the abscence of God, the abscence of God's love or any love and for whatever reason the people in hell want it that way, either its not enough or its not what they want for one reason or another but they condemn themselves to their condition.

    Its the same as were a prisoner to seriously reflect upon their actions and consequences they could be rehabilitated and have their freedom, most of them find excuses or just prefer the way of life that results in their incarceration and its simple as that.

    So far as punishment for sin goes, the crimes of a life time, those, in my faith which my reason and revelation I know to be correct, are dealt with by the purifying process of purgatory.

  8. #248
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    you're right. but no religous person wants to feel that their beliefs are wrong. no matter what evidence is presented. thats how you wind up with one of the follwing defenses:

    1- my god is god and can therefor do no wrong
    2- it may seem unfair but god is fair and its a mystery that only god understands
    If I switch a couple of words this is as easy to say about anyone, rationalists or the irreligious too. I'm not just talking ideologues here either.

    The reality is that in "debate" you seek to persuade yourself, that's why these sorts of forums are popular, when you get to the point of common ground and dialogue it gets interesting but we're a long way off that and until then its all a bit of a game. Real life's like that too.

  9. #249
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    some people may embrace lies. but rejecting the christian god on a moral basis has nothing to do with embracing a lie. in fact, the opposite. it means you have a concince.
    Take this in the spirit in which it's delivered, Robert, but I don't think you have the pipes to argue for/against faith - either as a psychological choice or spiritual ideal.

    Throughout this thread, it's become increasingly clear that your stance develops an opinion of theological reason from a variety of unchecked rhetorical positions - early on, you endeavor to create a (false) empirical platform by cherrypicking biblical selections to cater to your personal narrative of faith-based thought.

    From here, you work to include - forgive me - profound generalizations concerning the nature of your opposition: specifically biblical text.

    Then, after being refuted for dishonest citations, you rotate your defenses and switch to an emotional tug-of-war between your individual beliefs (specifically concerning the nature of Hell) and the intimate beliefs of your adversary.

    Not that it necessarily matters to you, but as a third-party observer, I'm forced to conclude that you've only read snippets of the Bible and purposefully warped context to match your preformed suspicions, instead of trying to illuminate an honest, falsifiable framework.

    I think you have a great deal of analysis yet in wait, Robert - beginning with a basic analysis of what it means to be an atheist. What's more, you seem clueless as to what constitutes quasi-mainstream (Read: non-fundamentalist) Christianity. Concerning oneself with a thoughtful approach to truth is one of the highest intellectual goals in life. Dividing idealism from reason is a rare gift.

    I respectfully submit that this gift remains yet outside your reach.

  10. #250
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    "Fairness" is a man-made construct and God (or whatever deity you believe in) never promised to be "fair". And also, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not "fair".

    In addition, Christianity is not the only religion on this planet. To condemn all faiths because you don't understand one particular faith is ignorant and hardly "fair".

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