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  1. #191
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    no. if something is neccesary for salvation, and you are going to apply fair standards, it must be easy to understand. there are more problems with that quote though. one can argue wether hell really has flames or wether thats just imagrey, but, there is no way to argue that hell is anything but a really, really, really bad place. not if you read the bible.

    salvation in the bible is pretty clear. not in laungauge, but in contenet. you've got to beleive in, and accept, jesus.

    thats not the least bit complicated. difficult to agree with, but not at all hard to understand.
    Our understanding of the precise nature of hell isn't tested in this life; nevertheless, I think everyone here agrees that anyone who seriously reads the bible will say that it's portrayed as a really, really, bad place.

    But, were there a hell, would everyone there recognize it as a really, really bad place? Is it possible to be in hell, yet not recognize that you are in hell?

  2. #192
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    How did this go?

    A missionary went to a foreign land that had never heard of Christianity before. He introduced Christianity to the natives and said that if they didn't accept God and Jesus that they would go to Hell.

    The natives asked if they would have gone to Hell if the missionary had not come to their land and told them this. The missionary said no because God is a just and loving God and would not punish any of His children for simple ignorance.

    The natives then asked, "Well, then WHY did you tell us?!"
    This makes me wonder why we don't abort more babies.

    Edit: and euthanize the retarded.

  3. #193
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Our understanding of the precise nature of hell isn't tested in this life; nevertheless, I think everyone here agrees that anyone who seriously reads the bible will say that it's portrayed as a really, really, bad place.
    this life is the only place to understand it. punishing someone, forever, for what they do, or choose, in this life, is unfair. end of story.

    But, were there a hell, would everyone there recognize it as a really, really bad place? Is it possible to be in hell, yet not recognize that you are in hell?
    i'd say if it were really that bad you would know.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  4. #194
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    How did this go?

    A missionary went to a foreign land that had never heard of Christianity before. He introduced Christianity to the natives and said that if they didn't accept God and Jesus that they would go to Hell.

    The natives asked if they would have gone to Hell if the missionary had not come to their land and told them this. The missionary said no because God is a just and loving God and would not punish any of His children for simple ignorance.

    The natives then asked, "Well, then WHY did you tell us?!"
    yeah, good way of definng the problem, except that some missionaries believe all people go to hell if they don't accept christ, even those that never heard of him. the phrase "god will not send anyone to hell that has not heard of him" is no where in the bible, not in those exact terms, nor stated in any other.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  5. #195
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    ^
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    ^
    See Romans 10.

  6. #196
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    See Romans 10.
    1- confess with your mouth
    2- believe with your heart

    you can choose to do the first. not the second.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  7. #197
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    this life is the only place to understand it. punishing someone, forever, for what they do, or choose, in this life, is unfair. end of story.
    The torments of hell are self-inflicted. The only consequence God inflicts is letting us go, and this happens only once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    i'd say if it were really that bad you would know.
    One can know only what is true, and one needn't be concerned with truth. People willingly embrace lies all the time. Why, if one were in hell, should he not embrace a lie so that he could believe his situation to be better than it actually is?

    Edit: had to move the "only" from before "know" to "what."

  8. #198
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    1- confess with your mouth
    2- believe with your heart

    you can choose to do the first. not the second.
    You're free to do the second if you want to.

  9. #199
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    The torments of hell are self-inflicted. The only consequence God inflicts is letting us go, and this happens only once.
    no, actualy they are not. however, it may make it easier for you to tell yourself that.



    One can only know what is true, and one needn't be concerned with truth. People willingly embrace lies all the time. Why, if one were in hell, should he not embrace a lie so that he could believe his situation to be better than it actually is?
    some people may embrace lies. but rejecting the christian god on a moral basis has nothing to do with embracing a lie. in fact, the opposite. it means you have a concince.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  10. #200
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    You're free to do the second if you want to.
    no, you're not. i may really really really want to beleive the moon is made out of cheese, but becasue i have actually seen a picture of a moon rock, i am forced to believe it is in fact, made out of moonrock. i can't force myself to beleive the moon is made out of cheese when i know for a fact it isin't.

    nor could i force myself to believe a $10 fine was an acceptable punishment for raping or killing someone. no matter how much i would want to believe that, i could never believe that.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

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