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  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Hell is reserved for those who reject God and carry on doing so, its not the ultimate reprimand and punishment.

    Personally when it comes to reprehensible sorts like rapists I recall that the bible and tradition indicate that God is just and that not only will be see justice done but it will be seen to be done too, any and all victims will receive satisfaction.

    As an RC I understand this to involve purgatory and its purgative and purifying process, personally I think it can start in life, people can be afflicted in this life or experience it all in the afterlife.
    Hmm, that's pretty interesting. For the sake of authenticity, I should say that I am open to a harsher view of hell than Lark, though I definitely agree that God is not a capricious or cruel God. I trust God to be just; I'm also open to justice meaning more than Lark's view of hell. Because I trust God to be just and can imagine a variety of possibilities that I find sufficiently resonant with sources of truth as I know them, it's not something I spend a lot of time worrying about, though I understand why it can be a very difficult issue.
    "There are no answers, only choices."
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  2. #172
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    So THIS is the point of all debates. I see now.
    Yup. And if the red states eventually secede from the Union, all debate stops at all levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    Well I can see where you're coming from and see how its a concern.
    But if I may be so honest, I have lived my life how I wanted to live mine.
    Some Christians may not have, but I think this is because they don't understand the concept of God. I truely think others believe its just a 'religion' and nothing else. But if you're a follower of Christ [and by your own choice, not your parents because they cannot choose what your heart believes in] then I've found that God to me is freedom and not oppression. I really think there's a big misconception and misunderstanding of such things.
    Well it may even be true that devout religious people have more overall life happiness. So if that's true (I vaguely remember some study) that could definitely be registered as a 'win' for life, even if they turn out to be wrong. So, have at it.

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    what? what you mean to say is:

    I, Scott, have a pre-formed set of beliefs, and I'm going to go shopping until I find the particular branch christianity that meets my pre set beliefs. Because, that, it seems, is the truth.
    No. How do you get that from what I said?
    "There are no answers, only choices."
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  4. #174
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    No. How do you get that from what I said?
    I'm not treating the Bible in a selective manner. I am treating it as though it's not necessarily the case that every word and piece of advice given is meant to be taken either as a direct command from God or a tenet to believe.

    you are deciding which parts of the bible to accept. therefor it is your pre set beleifs that determine what you accept.
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  5. #175
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Hmm, that's pretty interesting. For the sake of authenticity, I should say that I am open to a harsher view of hell than Lark, though I definitely agree that God is not a capricious or cruel God. I trust God to be just; I'm also open to justice meaning more than Lark's view of hell. Because I trust God to be just and can imagine a variety of possibilities that I find sufficiently resonant with sources of truth as I know them, it's not something I spend a lot of time worrying about, though I understand why it can be a very difficult issue.
    i'd be interested to see how you define the word "just". how is it possible to punish someone eternaly for a finite crime, and still be just???
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  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    really? people don't have much time figuring out what plato, aristotle or marcus aurelius meant. perhaps there are fundamental problems with the way the bible was written......
    What? Wow, not the case, especially not if you break it down to the extent that the Bible is. As for how the Bible is written... it's not very surprising that it's more difficult to interpret a compilation of books written in multiple different languages across a lot of time and a variety of cultures, and encompassing a plethora of literary genres and topics, than it is to interpret the writings of a single person who is writing within a single culture's frame of reference, where that culture is one with a decent bit of other writings and such to draw on, and where that person is writing within a genre that tends to make things as explicit and literal as it can most of the time.
    "There are no answers, only choices."
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  7. #177
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    What? Wow, not the case, especially not if you break it down to the extent that the Bible is. As for how the Bible is written... it's not very surprising that it's more difficult to interpret a compilation of books written in multiple different languages across a lot of time and a variety of cultures, and encompassing a plethora of literary genres and topics, than it is to interpret the writings of a single person who is writing within a single culture's frame of reference, where that culture is one with a decent bit of other writings and such to draw on, and where that person is writing within a genre that tends to make things as explicit and literal as it can most of the time.
    it would be hard to reconcile a bunch of books written in different langauges across thousands of years --- if --- the books were written by men
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    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    I'm not treating the Bible in a selective manner. I am treating it as though it's not necessarily the case that every word and piece of advice given is meant to be taken either as a direct command from God or a tenet to believe.

    you are deciding which parts of the bible to accept. therefor it is your pre set beleifs that determine what you accept.
    I'm not deciding which parts of the Bible to accept. I am deciding how to interpret and apply various parts of the Bible based on context and such. As for the dichotomy between what the Bible says and a potential set of pre-set beliefs, I don't see either as fixed points for me. Seeing what the Bible says on a topic has often changed my perspective on that topic, just as learning something about cultural context or language or acquiring a new perspective has often changed my perspective on passages in the Bible.

    This, it seems to me, is a good model for how human knowing works - ideas and beliefs exist in something like networks which are interrelated and often co-dependent. New beliefs occur when a novel idea is brought to mind which is found to be more attractive than the prior beliefs which it threatens to supplant, based on greater resonance within the network in some way, often in conjunction with other factors present in human motivation. It simply isn't possible, however, to come at a text or an idea and interpret it as though that network weren't present. The subjective element is always present, and if it weren't, we wouldn't know how to interpret things anyway. This is inherent in our very basic ways of dividing the world and using language.

    If you're expecting me to come at the Bible in a way that doesn't work within a larger network, I'm afraid you're asking for something I don't have to offer. If you think you are coming at the Bible any less subjectively, I would suggest that you are mistaken.
    Last edited by Scott; 12-28-2009 at 08:21 PM. Reason: Small but important correction in the last sentence.
    "There are no answers, only choices."
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  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    it would be hard to reconcile a bunch of books written in different langauges across thousands of years --- if --- the books were written by men
    ? You earlier attributed part of the Bible to Paul. Was I supposed to disagree?
    "There are no answers, only choices."
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  10. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    I'm not deciding which parts of the Bible to accept. I am deciding how to interpret and apply various parts of the Bible based on context and such. As for the dichotomy between what the Bible says and a potential set of pre-set beliefs, I don't see either as fixed points for me. Seeing what the Bible says on a topic has often changed my perspective on that topic, just as learning something about cultural context or language or acquiring a new perspective has often changed my perspective on passages in the Bible.

    This, it seems to me, is a good model for how human knowing works - ideas and beliefs exist in something like networks which are interrelated and often co-dependent. New beliefs occur when a novel idea is brought to mind which is found to be more attractive than the prior beliefs which it threatens to supplant, based on greater resonance within the network in some way, often in conjunction with other factors present in human motivation. It simply isn't possible, however, to come at a text or an idea and interpret it as though that network weren't present. The subjective element is always present, and if it weren't, we wouldn't know how to interpret things anyway. This is inherent in our very basic ways of dividing the world and using language.

    If you're expecting me to come at the Bible in a way that doesn't work within a larger network, I'm afraid you're asking for something I don't have to offer. If you think you are coming at the Bible equally subjectively, I would suggest that you are mistaken.
    do you have any objective standars when interpreting the bible, or is it all about what you feel/think. if you have objective standards, what are they?
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/robert165/

    I'm just trying to do this Jigsaw puzzle, before it rains anymore.

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