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Is the truth really so bad?

Into It

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Most people I know grew up in one sort of religious household or another. Many parents of the people I know would be classified as "religious moderates," I think; they didn't really go to church all that often or even talk about religion much. Why did they feel this drive to be religious at all, then? I mean this especially in those cases where one feels the sacred texts are quite possibly not sacred, but only that they provide positive moral advice and guidance. Why not choose a favorite philosopher instead?

Perhaps they did not know any philosophers to begin with, and religion is an "easy way" to raise a child right. It's been tried and tested. It's much like a fashion; you must dress SOME way, and if you deviate too far from the norm you risk being ostracized. Ironically, it is those who choose to wear no clothes at all who stand out the most.

But I am trying to get at the reason that it is commonly viewed as not only moral but absolutely essential to lie to your children. The psychological impact of the prospect of death; becoming something that is no longer Self, deserves its own thread. I don't think it is fully realized by many yet just how much death plays into our beliefs and actions. Or genes have been selected, over many others, because ours are those that make a strong effort to avoid death. We are built on a genetic level to run each time we are near it. Since we are not mere mammals but have great powers of reasoning (by comparison), the fear of death may be greatly compounded in us. I am not sure that there is any time when one is old enough or mature enough to accept the fact that death is certain, though some are able to mitigate the fear that this thought initially causes. It follows from this belief that there is not a time when we are too young to learn of this. I spend some time pondering the fact that the vast majority of people on this planet don't actually believe that they are going to die. This is testament to the fact of death being very difficult to cope with. Many of the more rational people I know, those who are not religious generally, find it likely that there is life after death. I think it is about as likely as the sun having a core of ice. The statement itself cannot be made without contradiction.

The two things I credit for this vastly delusional idea of death are that religion keeps the idea of the afterlife in the mainstream, and equally important, we do not learn about death early enough. Many of us, while we are three or four years old, unable to tell what is fantasy and what is not, are told that our goldfish goes to "Goldfish Heaven" which is somewhere in the city's sewer system. We do not recognize death - one certainty on par with gravity - as a reality during the period that we are learning what is and is not real.

Many people, even if they knew that there was no afterlife, would STILL teach their kids that there was one. We REALLY want to lie to them about this. I do not think it is reasonable. Where do you stand on this?
 

Lark

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I stand on the "you're totally wrong" grassy knoll and I'm training my sights on you as I speak. Just waiting for someone to open fire from the book depository though.
 

lowtech redneck

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Many people, even if they knew that there was no afterlife, would STILL teach their kids that there was one. We REALLY want to lie to them about this. I do not think it is reasonable. Where do you stand on this?

As I've stated before on these death and religion threads, if truth=nihilism, then whatever is utilitarian is the only "truth" that matters. Why would it not be "reasonable" to lie to children in this manner if it has utilitarian benefits for the children involved?
 

VagrantFarce

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They do it because it makes them feel reassured and special. To them it doesn't matter whether it's true or not, the only barometer they know to use is how it makes you feel.

It would be easy for me to say that I would never lie to my kids, never stunt their curiosity, never shout at them etc., but I don't have kids and I don't know what it's like to take care of them. Depending on the kid, maybe the straight truth really does hurt a little too much.
 

Owl

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If you don't believe in an after life and you you're a materialist, then I don't think you should have children in the first place. Why would you bring a child into the world if this were the case? In view of all the suffering in the world, and our inability to control the world, bringing another person into the world would be irresponsible at best and sadistic at worst. It's worse than being the cause of a car wreck, because you decided to drive drunk: even though you're responsible for the suffering brought on by your decision, at least you're not responsible for the fact that the people you maimed or killed existed such that they could experience this suffering.

However, if there is no personal immortality, there is no rational basis for ethics. If the consequence is the same no matter how you choose to live, then there's no rational way to evaluate one way of life as being better than another. And if all men die, and all death is equal, then all men struggle toward the same end, no matter how they choose to arrive there.
 

milkyway2

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I'm not sure. I see that kids who are raised in church are (sometimes) smarter and more disciplined. But then on the other hand, I could not possibly ever raise my kids religious because I do not believe in God and I won't lie to my kids.

My mom's a christian and raised me a christian. I am grateful to her because she's so loving, kind, and a great mother, she taught me to be nice to others and all sorts of nice things. But I do also resent her for forcing me to believe something. Whenever I would ask her questions as a kid she told me the answer from the viewpoint of a Christian and also told me that was the only right answer. She didn't encourage thinking on my own and trying to find out anything for myself. She says the only things I need to do are love and serve God. And according to her the only reason to ever do anything is to please God. When I was younger I believed her because she IS smart. Which tricked me. And I do kind of hold all that against her.
 

Robert165

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As I've stated before on these death and religion threads, if truth=nihilism, then whatever is utilitarian is the only "truth" that matters. Why would it not be "reasonable" to lie to children in this manner if it has utilitarian benefits for the children involved?
it's not resoanable if the lie is easily detectable
 

ajblaise

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It's not truth people fear. It's not knowing the truth that's so unbearable for people. So they make it up, or someone makes it up for them. Anything for closure.
 

Penda

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I grew up atheist, have always been either atheistic or agnostic, and usually find the concept of a deity to be rather hard to swallow. On the other hand I really wish there was a God or some sort of essential meaning extant in the universe. From my extensive reading and thinking about things I am sometimes convinced that life is essentially empty and devoid of meaning. For some people an existence without boundaries or rules is liberating but I have a hard time dealing with it and usually have to try to distract myself from thinking about it all. I think having a deity on your side and some objective rules to live by would be extremely comforting. Of course this doesn't justify coddling your children from the realities of the world, but I don't think that there is any actual benefit to atheism. However I have no doubt I am in the extreme minority in this view.
 

lowtech redneck

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It's not truth people fear. It's not knowing the truth that's so unbearable for people. So they make it up, or someone makes it up for them. Anything for closure.

I disagree; again, if truth=nihilism, then I think the vast majority of people would prefer ignorance over "closure." And I think a majority would prefer comforting delusions to either.
 
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Litvyak

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Do you consider most world religions "easily detectable" lies? They somehow still offer comfort to the majority of the world's inhabitants....

Is shit tasty? Still, millions of flies are hovering above it every minute.

Truth holds value in itself, even if it happens to be harsh or cruel. I'm all for the red pill, me.
 

Oaky

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Retyping and editing something I wrote sometime before. Personally I believe in God. I have thought about it and there is an endless logical loop about it. People stop at one point in this loop forsaking the other side to which they make their conclusion. Anyways, because of this it comes down to other factors. I go into the spiritual aspect which in turn tells me there is a God.
I don't wish to start an argument based on the whole thing because:

1. I know exactly the process in which people think about the whole idea
2. We will get nowhere because people wouldn't comprehend what I say
3. Every point people argue will already be known to me

But there are certain atheistic arguments that are so pathetic they would make me want to bang my head on the wall. Especially the feeler type atheists who try only to use feelings to justify their claims. I understand the point of view of the atheists so arguing with one would be sad on my part as I would know what they would say and mean. If I were to explain why God exists on my part it would take quite a while so I'm not necessarily up for the job right now....
 

Robert165

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If I were to explain why God exists on my part it would take quite a while so I'm not necessarily up for the job right now....

if god exists he should be readily apparent, like heat or gravity, or the clear understanding that tehft and murder are wrong, ie, noone shold have to explain god if god were really a entity worth explaining
 

Oaky

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if god exists he should be readily apparent, like heat or gravity, or the clear understanding that tehft and murder are wrong, ie, noone shold have to explain god if god were really a entity worth explaining
I stressed in my post I know and understand the points the atheists make on the existence on God. This is just another one. It is useless to give me any argument on it. You only go to a certain point.
 

Robert165

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I stressed in my post I know and understand the points the atheists make on the existence on God. This is just another one. It is useless to give me any argument on it.
yeah i can see that it's useless, however
if you dont want a reaction, why post?
 

Oaky

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yeah i can see that it's useless, however
if you dont want a reaction, why post?
Well, there can be several reasons. Perhaps the main reason would be if maybe if someone was curious of my personal religious beliefs they can now find out. Another would be so that people can realise that their are people who fully understand both sides of the spectrum and has gone to a point much further when it comes to atheistic debates. Or maybe I just like to state that atheists are wrong while fully knowing and understanding their views and beliefs. But I usually just leave the atheists to their views. I wouldn't have the need to argue something I doubt their egos would allow through. Pointless debates... This is of course not to offend the atheists here. Many of them are really nice people.
 

Robert165

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Well, there can be several reasons. Perhaps the main reason would be if maybe if someone was curious of my personal religious beliefs they can now find out. Another would be so that people can realise that their are people who fully understand both sides of the spectrum and has gone to a point much further when it comes to atheistic debates. Or maybe I just like to state that atheists are wrong while fully knowing and understanding their views and beliefs. But I usually just leave the atheists to their views. I wouldn't have the need to argue something I doubt their egos would allow through. Pointless debates... This is of course not to offend the atheists here. Many of them are really nice people.
yeah but the rational side of my mind, the atheist part, is just itching to get you to declare your views on god so that i can deconstruct them and prove them wrong. because, any view on god has to be flawed, since he can not be defined. definng what you can not possibly know is like a red flag to my rational mind.
 
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