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Thread: Is the truth really so bad?

  1. #61
    Rainy Day Woman Array MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Then -if you are correct- I can assert anything I want, and you'll eventually have to prove me I'm wrong.

    I claim Santa Claus do exist!
    Prove me he doesn't!


    In the end, you'll have to admit that religion is never a question of logic, but of faith itself. Don't worry, dozens and dozens of philosophers and epistemologists have already thought to the question during the last millenias, and that was their conclusion so far.
    Now, faith is an interesting phenomena, not to be overlooked or discarded lightly.
    My previous posts said the same thing.

    No. I'm saying you are free to assert whatever you'd like. Asserting what you want won't make it true or false to me. It is not my place to disprove or prove your assertion. Disproving or proving your assertion won't make it true or false to you.

    I get that I'm in the philosophy and spirituality board and I couldn't help but post because these kind of opinions like in the OP and those of the exact opposite POV use language that is unintentionally inflammatory and absolute. It gives no room for tolerance. I'm not big on it so carry on...

    I'm heading back to the SP Arthouse now...

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  2. #62


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    I actually agree with this. But Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy?? It's kind of fun isn't it? I recall my youngest daughter at 4 being told by one of her friends that there was no such thing as Santa Claus. She said, "no, that's not right, because her parents would never lie to her". I still feel a bit guilty about it because we were always honest and truthful with her. In the end though, I think it is pretty harmless.
    I'm not convinced that Christmas is more fun with Santa Claus. At least it's not more fun for my daughter. It might be more fun for the adults to be in on "the secret", but Christmas is still really fun for kids without Santa Claus. Getting gifts, candy canes and other sweets, putting up decorations, looking at the lights in other people's yards, etc.... All of these things are really fun already. I can even put out surprise presents on Christmas Eve, and then say they were from me the next morning. I don't see why Santa is needed.
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  3. #63
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    I think the opposite

    I think people believe in death as oblivion for eternity because of the irrational fear of death. If they didn't, death would not be nearly as scary, and treating death as such would mean survival is less likely.

    There's something similar to be said about people who claim they know what the afterlife is, since they are in the same boat as those who claim it is eternal oblivion.

    Saying I don't where I came from, where the universe came from, what I am, what you are, where we are going, what existence is etcetera seems like the only rational thing I can really say about knowledge on that scale.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Array cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I'm a Christian (for the record), and I think parents should teach their children the truth as far as they understand it. For example I'm not going to teach my daughter to believe in Santa Claus.
    Same here. Our kids are 11-16 now and the funny thing is, that even though we never taught them that Santa was real in the sense that he is still alive and coming down chimneys to bring children gifts (we did teach them the legend of the generous priest who provided poor girls with dowries), some of our kids have at one point or another believed or pretended to believe in Santa. That was something I didn't expect. Humans just like to believe, I think.

    Edit: FWIW, I don't regret being truthful with them at all and I don't think the lack of deception has reduced their enjoyment of holidays/loss of teeth, etc. It seems like it ultimately all comes down to presents and sugar content in the end. Greedy little Ids.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #65
    half mystic, half skeksis Array jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    But I am trying to get at the reason that it is commonly viewed as not only moral but absolutely essential to lie to your children. The psychological impact of the prospect of death; becoming something that is no longer Self, deserves its own thread.
    I don't understand this mentality either. If you truly believe in something, it makes sense that you would instruct your children from your knowledge base. But if you don't even believe it, I don't get why people say things like "Grandma is in heaven". Even if there is an afterlife, there is no way of knowing that her judgment has been passed and that she is, in fact, in heaven of all places. I guess we all want the easy way out and we want to make people feel better, so we lie to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    However, if there is no personal immortality, there is no rational basis for ethics. If the consequence is the same no matter how you choose to live, then there's no rational way to evaluate one way of life as being better than another.
    This sentence really bugs me. I'm not arguing for or against any religion, but I remember that you self-identify as a Christian, am I correct? Do you think Jesus would evaluate anyone's life as being better or worse than anyone else's? Just curious.

    Also, the golden rule is logically valid, even if there is no afterlife. That is the rational basis for ethics. If you are only being "good" because you are scared of getting burned, then you are not really being "good", are you?

    And if all men die, and all death is equal, then all men struggle toward the same end, no matter how they choose to arrive there.
    What is so terrible about this concept? Do you think all dogs and apple trees go to heaven, as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert165 View Post
    i fail to see how one is supposed to "just believe"
    I agree. But do you believe in subatomic particles?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post

    That may be the wisest and most truthful words you have written since I began to read you on TypeC.

    At last, you do seem aware of some of your own necessary illusions.
    What do you mean exactly?

  7. #67
    Twerking & Lurking Array ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I'm a Christian (for the record), and I think parents should teach their children the truth as far as they understand it. For example I'm not going to teach my daughter to believe in Santa Claus.
    I have to agree with you.
    My parents never taught me about such things like Santa Claus.
    Lol, I was the kid trying to disown the other children's belief in him,
    But I didn't even know anything about Santa until I went to school or saw it on tv. So in the end my parents never had to tell me one day that he didn't exist. I already knew. I wouldn't have trusted my parents if they taught us he was real when they knew he wasn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
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  8. #68
    The Duchess of Oddity Array Queen Kat's Avatar
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    I was raised with the idea that there is nothing after life. My father was an extreme atheist, just like my mother. They were sceptic and they kind of hated the Christian ideas they were raised with. I am sceptic when it comes to everything, even my parents' scientific explanation to life. Maybe because they DID make me believe in Santa Clausalike figures. When I found out those figures weren't real, I told all the children I knew about it. That made my mother very mad.

    The problem is that we all want to know everything. We search answers for every mystery in life, even for the things we can't possibly know. We can't know if there is an afterlife, except when we've been in that afterlife. There have been people who claim that they've returned from the dead, most of them have somehow the same stories, but we don't quite know if what they saw was really afterlife. Maybe it was all just inside their imaginations? We search and we search for what is after this life and after all, intellectual people seem to be quite rational these days. So their explanation for this mystery must be something really rational as well. Lots of rational intellectuals are so "rational" that they are likely to drop anything emotional. When searching an answer for this mystery that cannot be solved they drop all their emotions as well. They start searching for answer and they discover that there is barely anything that can help them find that answer. They start searching a biological explanation. They see that our conciousness is hiding inside our brains and if you die, your brain dies as well, it doesn't work anymore. So if your brain doesn't work, your conciousness doesn't work either. Conclusion: if your body die, your soul dies too. It's an unsatisfying answer, but it is scientific. But there are so many scientific things that turned out to be wrong later. We can't know this for sure. We have to die first if we want to know what is after life, and unfortunately most people don't come back to live once they're dead.

    Meanwhile this explanation (of the soul dying too) can be emotional as well. This explanation can be explained biologically too. You see, most animals are afraid of death. Why are they afraid of death? Because they're born that way. Animals who aren't afraid of death would almost probably die younger, because they don't run away from danger. Because animals who are afraid of death do run away from danger, they get older and they get more children who are naturally afraid of death too. So in the end every living being on earth becomes afraid of death in some way. You could ask yourself "what is the psychological reason for this fear?" and instead of answering that it's probably something evolutionary answer "because after life there is something really unsatisfying". I think that could be a reason why people think that there is nothing after life, because they're afraid of death and they think that there is something extremely unsatisfying (nothing) after it. It's just like children who are afraid of the dark, because there is a very scary monster hiding under their bed, waiting for them to come out of bed and hurt them.

    When I'm older and when I have children of my own and they ask me where people go after they die, I won't tell them "You'll go to heaven" or "You become a ghost" or "You stop to exist". I'll just tell them what I really, really know for sure: "I don't know. No one knows. Some people say that they do, but even they can't know it for sure. If you want to know what comes after life, you have to die first." And then I'll warn them that they shouldn't be tying to die so they will get to know what death is like, become once you're dead you'll never come back and their mommy needs someone to hug once in a while. Or something. I don't know what I must expect after this life, maybe it's something good, or something bad, or even nothing, I don't know. I'm not really afraid of dying (yeah, I'm a mistake of evolution) but I don't want to die yet either. I like my life the way it is and I will accept death the way it is (at least, as long as it's not too cheesy and stuff).
    I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was obviously on. I used to fly myself and I said, "There's one terrible pilot."
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