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  1. #31
    Senior Member Robert165's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    To sum things up, you're saying something like this:

    "I think God exists, but I don't want to start a debate, since a) I know every counterargument one could possibly state, and b) people don't understand what I'm saying, since my thoughts are based on a level they can't comprehend. I for one didn't stop on the 'logical loop' they failed to fully explore. Nevertheless, certain atheistic arguments are pathetic. My ideas are so complex that it'd be too much time to explain them."

    Way to flatter your ego while evading a possible debate.
    I have a feeling that you're terribly full of yourself. No, don't blame it on your type, it has nothing to do with it. I wonder why though, did you invent or discover anything useful? Did you publicize a book? Are you responsible for a scientific breakthrough?

    It's kinda strange. Almost theatrical.
    i think he was just trying to say they were his personal views is all......
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  2. #32
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    our awareness is limited.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    As I've stated before on these death and religion threads, if truth=nihilism, then whatever is utilitarian is the only "truth" that matters. Why would it not be "reasonable" to lie to children in this manner if it has utilitarian benefits for the children involved?
    Ok, I used the wrong word here. What I meant and really should have said is that I do not think it is necessary. Not even for utilitarian benefit. I really don't know what the hell I was thinking to use the word reasonable.
    I don't think that it is necessary to lie in order to console the child. He may not like the thought at first, but I don't think we have to do the Santa Clause thing and figure out that we have been lied to as we begin to use our reason more effectiely. The main effects that I see from this are people going their entire lives accepting building belief structures that allow them to feel they can bypass this truth. I don't mean to sound harsh in saying these things, but as someone who suspends judgment before evidence is presented, the fact that there are so many people that strongly believe that they will continue to live even when they are dead appears to me to border on "mass delusion" and needs to be addressed.

    Then you would say as utilitarian ethic, it is not anyone's place to pull the rug out from under someone who did believe this, if it makes them feel better. It may or may not be conducive to long term happiness - I don't really know. But I enjoy the fact that I'm going to die when I compare it to the vexing thought of living forever, good, bad, or neutral. Many people will surely disagree with me on this point, and it is only my personal opinion. I think that it is no different than accepting that you probably won't grow up to be a billionaire, even if you really want that to be your future. I don't think it's harmful, and I'm not sure that a bunch of people living their daily lives thinking that one day they will be billionaires would be such a great thing either. If you accept that that is a highly unlikely outcome, you see that being modestly wealthy is probably good enough. The likely state of things is not awful. That we die is not so bad. We have a bias toward believing consciousness to be more important that other aspects of the universe, but when you realize that this is going to be the case for any reasonable, sentient being, it just sort of makes sense that life begins and ends like everything else. Nobody shivers in horror when they consider the 19th century and earlier just because they were not there to experience it. It wasn't scary when we didn't exist then, and it won't be scary when we don't exist later.

    So in short, I do not believe the lie to be useful even from a utilitarian standpoint.


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  4. #34
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    So in short, I do not believe the lie to be useful even from a utilitarian standpoint.
    That's the point where we fundamentally disagree; its difficult to debate this issue, as it involves assumptions made about the fundamental aspects of human nature as well as presumptions concerning degrees of relative utility.

  5. #35
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    What is asserted without proof, can be disproven without proof.

    (Euclid -> Assertoric atheism)
    Nope. It can't be asserted and it can't be disproven.


    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    But I am trying to get at the reason that it is commonly viewed as not only moral but absolutely essential to lie to your children....I am not sure that there is any time when one is old enough or mature enough to accept the fact that death is certain, though some are able to mitigate the fear that this thought initially causes. It follows from this belief that there is not a time when we are too young to learn of this.
    You do not believe in an afterlife and therefore whomever teaches their children about life after death is lying to them or trying to make the thought of death more palatable to youngsters because they are afraid of death without an afterlife and are deluding themselves into making the unknown less fearful.

    Is this a correct interpretation of your post?
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  6. #36
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Truth holds value in itself, even if it happens to be harsh or cruel. I'm all for the red pill, me.
    What is the value of "truth" in a nihilistic world? Do you simply wish to maximize your personal happiness at the expense of people who find utility through the belief that one retains conscious existence after death?

    In any event, the Matrix example is not equivalent to the question being asked: in that movie, the reality behind the illusion was simply unpleasant, not without hope for the future.

  7. #37
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    To sum things up, you're saying something like this:

    "I think God exists, but I don't want to start a debate, since a) I know every counterargument one could possibly state, and b) people don't understand what I'm saying, since my thoughts are based on a level they can't comprehend. I for one didn't stop on the 'logical loop' they failed to fully explore. Nevertheless, certain atheistic arguments are pathetic. My ideas are so complex that it'd be too much time to explain them."

    Way to flatter your ego while evading a possible debate.
    I have a feeling that you're terribly full of yourself. No, don't blame it on your type, it has nothing to do with it. I wonder why though, did you invent or discover anything useful? Did you publicize a book? Are you responsible for a scientific breakthrough?

    It's kinda strange. Almost theatrical.
    Look at you getting all riled up because of my beliefs and ideas. People would understand my beliefs if I explained it but it would take time. And yes, I'm thinking of writing a book about it.

    When it comes to matters such as religion I won't care about being humble. Don't expect me to take such things lightly. I say it as it is. I do know the counter-arguments and thought processes of the atheists. And that is why it would be useless to argue with me about it, because I know them.

  8. #38
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    When it comes to matters such as religion I won't care about being humble. Don't expect me to take such things lightly. I say it as it is. I do know the counter-arguments and thought processes of the atheists. And that is why it would be useless to argue with me about it, because I know them.
    I don't expect you to "take such things lightly". Think and debate with all the strength of your will and your mind.

    But be humble, and don't expect to be prepared for everything people throw at you. You might have won a debate against some atheists in a particular time, but saying the abovementioned things makes you sadly illogical, short-sighted and stuck-up...

    ... without having done anything that would give a fair explication for your ego. I'm not getting riled up because of your ideas, I'm getting riled up because of your style. Yet again.

  9. #39
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Nope. It can't be asserted and it can't be disproven.
    Then -if you are correct- I can assert anything I want, and you'll eventually have to prove me I'm wrong.

    I claim Santa Claus do exist!
    Prove me he doesn't!

    ---

    In the end, you'll have to admit that religion is never a question of logic, but of faith itself. Don't worry, dozens and dozens of philosophers and epistemologists have already thought to the question during the last millenias, and that was their conclusion so far.
    Now, faith is an interesting phenomena, not to be overlooked or discarded lightly.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #40
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    I don't expect you to "take such things lightly". Think and debate with all the strength of your will and your mind.

    But be humble, and don't expect to be prepared for everything people throw at you. You might have won a debate against some atheists in a particular time, but saying the abovementioned things makes you sadly illogical, short-sighted and stuck-up...

    ... without having done anything that would give a fair explication for your ego. I'm not getting riled up because of your ideas, I'm getting riled up because of your style. Yet again.
    Lytviak,


    I suggest we should not waste our time on Ragingkatsuki. Either it's a trap designed to create reactions such as yours, either he's a non-interesting egomaniac liar (that wouldn't be the first time he feels frustrated about the real world).

    Somehow, he reminds me of a young Adnan Oktar, if you have ever heard of this psychiatric case...
    He wants to write a book, he said?

    But again the provocative tone he uses might just be an elaborated prank.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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