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Is your Religion your Race?

S

Sniffles

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The Believer (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its an awesome film, its only ever shown at insane times on the TV in the UK because of things like the swastika shirts, terror camp and attempted murder and violence but its a really thought provoking film.

I'll have to keep an eye out for it. Sounds a bit like the Infiltrator which is based on the true story of the Israeli journalist Yaron Svoray who infiltrated Germany's neo-Nazi scene. I've also read his book on that experience.
 

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The Believer (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its an awesome film, its only ever shown at insane times on the TV in the UK because of things like the swastika shirts, terror camp and attempted murder and violence but its a really thought provoking film.

Sensationalism and voyeurism. Plus a morbid fascination for the Jews and their nemesis.

Nihil novi sub sole.

!וְאֵין כָּל-חָדָשׁ, תַּחַת הַשָּׁמֶ
 

Lark

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I'll have to keep an eye out for it. Sounds a bit like the Infiltrator which is based on the true story of the Israeli journalist Yaron Svoray who infiltrated Germany's neo-Nazi scene. I've also read his book on that experience.

I've seen The Infiltrator on sale, didnt know there was a book about it though, I was sort of unsure whether or not to watch it since it was based on real events. I liked the way that The Believer could pose so many dilemmas and questions but it only could do so because it was fiction, I think anyway.

The actual Nazi scene is totally disturbed, I knew one guy at university who started out as a strange sort of sectarian Roman Catholic fundamentalist, he always was a bit strange and people had suspiscions that he was a closeted homosexual and he was also a couple years younger than a lot of students at the time because he'd been fast tracked due to a high IQ, an interest in Franco's Spain led to him becoming a bona fida fascist.

In the UK and NI the nazi scene is very anti-roman catholic and the influence of American Klan protestantism is huge. I'd say that the anti-catholic ethos is greater than the anti-semitism.
 

JocktheMotie

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Hmm, if this is a private faith based school I don't see how their admission process should be up for review by the courts. If ethnicity is part of the religion's criteria for being a "real Jew" [and I don't know if you can really call it ethnicity] I don't see how they can regulate that, because it just gives the state power over the religion.

I know virtually nothing about Judaism though, so my interpretation is probably off.
 
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The actual Nazi scene is totally disturbed, I knew one guy at university who started out as a strange sort of sectarian Roman Catholic fundamentalist, he always was a bit strange and people had suspiscions that he was a closeted homosexual and he was also a couple years younger than a lot of students at the time because he'd been fast tracked due to a high IQ, an interest in Franco's Spain led to him becoming a bona fida fascist.
Oh yes, I've encountered those types before. It's even interesting when they consider themselves more Catholic than the Pope as is often said.


In the UK and NI the nazi scene is very anti-roman catholic and the influence of American Klan protestantism is huge. I'd say that the anti-catholic ethos is greater than the anti-semitism.

Wouldn't surprise me. Anti-Catholicism was the mainstay of the Klan in the 1920's and 30's, far more than Anti-Black sentiment. The popular image we have of the Klan emerged largely during the Civil Rights movement of the 50s and 60s.
 

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Hmm, if this is a private faith based school I don't see how their admission process should be up for review by the courts. If ethnicity is part of the religion's criteria for being a "real Jew" [and I don't know if you can really call it ethnicity] I don't see how they can regulate that, because it just gives the state power over the religion.

I know virtually nothing about Judaism though, so my interpretation is probably off.

I think that is more a UK/US difference than a religious difference.
 

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Anyway.

It's not the first time English justice will issue very curious and partial judgments, especially when Jews are concerned.

It already was the first and only Western democracy to specifically boycott Israeli universities (1), and things have not improved so far. See for instance:

Tzipi Livni arrest warrant prompts Israeli government travel 'ban' | World news | guardian.co.uk

Will this insanity ever end?

---

(1) It's even funnier when you know the same so-called "Human right activists" who urged this boycott have nothing against close exchange programs with the universities of countries like Saudi Arabia, Syria, Cuba, Sudan, North Korea, Libya and Pakistan. Their focus is Israel, and only Israel.
And yet, they pretend they have nothing against Jews.
 
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Falcarius

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I'm still trying to wrap my head around how this is ethnic discrimination. It has to do with the validity of the conversion, not anything with the mother's genetic line. I mean, I have a feeling that I wouldn't be allowed into this school because I'm not "Jewish" enough, even though I have a Jewish mother and her mother had a Jewish mother, and her mother had a Jewish mother, and on and on as far as anyone can trace, because my family practices Judaism the same way many Christians practice Christianity here: only setting foot in a house of worship about two times a year.

Because in this case it is not. With a bit of careful reading, you will see that the Rabbi objected to the student as being "Jewish" NOT because of the mother's ethnicity but because of the manner of the mother's conversion. Whether this was right or wrong is beside the point -- the point is that this was an issue of religious purity and not ethnic purity :doh:

Well you are right when you suggest the case in the original post is more to do with religion than race, but one has to understand the two are linked. It comes down to ones definition of what 'race' as being. I personally consider race as not only ethnic background and culture but also religion. Hence, I intrinsically consider the topic about a race issue.


British law seems wishy washy when it comes to religious discrimination, up until a few years ago it is debatable if religious discrimination was even covered by the Race Relations Act. Since the passing of the Race Relations Amendment Act 2000, it is apparently illegal for any organisation discriminate against a person on religious grounds as long as the organisation have a ''religious purpose''. :wtf:

Hmm, if this is a private faith based school I don't see how their admission process should be up for review by the courts. If ethnicity is part of the religion's criteria for being a "real Jew" [and I don't know if you can really call it ethnicity] I don't see how they can regulate that, because it just gives the state power over the religion.

I know virtually nothing about Judaism though, so my interpretation is probably off.

It is a voluntary aided school, in other words it it is part funded by the public. In general, whether something is private or public organisation is pretty much irrelevant when British law and anti-discrimination law are concerned.


Anyway.

It's not the first time English justice will deliver very curious and partial judgments, especially when Jews are concerned.

It already was the first and only Western democracy to specifically boycott Israeli universities, and things have not improved so far. See for instance:

Tzipi Livni arrest warrant prompts Israeli government travel 'ban' | World news | guardian.co.uk

Will this insanity ever end?


I do not understand the logic and reason for the boycott of Israeli universities. But, I do know Tzipi Livni deserves to be shot like her father, luckily for her Britain does not execute war criminals and her bastard of a father was able to brake out of prison.:ng_mad:
 

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Well you are right when you suggest the case in the original post is more to do with religion than race, but one has to understand the two are linked. It comes down to ones definition of what 'race' as being. I personally consider race as not only ethnic background and culture but also religion. Hence, I intrinsically consider the topic about a race issue.

What do you think of the Africans converted by the first of the colonists there? Did they become European when they were converted?

Sometimes ethnicity and religion are linked, but I don't think this is one of the cases where it is -- or if it is, that the link isn't particularly strong.

I wonder what would happen if "M" in this article went through a formal Orthodox conversion, if they would still discriminate against him on these grounds. I also wonder if this rule makes adopted children with formally Jewish adoptive mothers discriminated against, too.

British law seems wishy washy when it comes to religious discrimination, up until a few years ago it is debatable if religious discrimination was even covered by the Race Relations Act. Since the passing of the Race Relations Amendment Act 2000, it is apparently illegal for any organisation discriminate against a person on religious grounds as long as the organisation have a ''religious purpose''. :wtf:

I had a hunch this was more about British people than racism.
 

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I dont believe anyone is using a single article to label an entire people, I just posted that made me question why religion and race in this instance seemed to be the same thing, surely that was the perspective of the oppessors?
So that's all you want to know? Well then, let me help you out.

Despite what US law holds - and maybe laws in other countries for all I know - there's no such thing as a Jewish race. Race denotes shared ancestry and shared genetics. And while you are thinking, "But they do share an ancestry and genetics!" most of us do, but some of us do not. Why, you ask? Because of *points at converts" those guys.

You see, anyone can convert via Judaism and thus be recognized as Jewish/a Jew. However, as an example, no matter how much I like rap music, I cannot convert into the black race to become a legitimate rapper.

See what I'm say'n? Yo.
 

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I do not understand the logic and reason for the boycott of Israeli universities. But, I do know Tzipi Livni deserves to be shot like her father, luckily for her Britain does not execute war criminals and her bastard of a father able to brake out of prison.

Do you think Churchill and Thatcher should have been shot too?

---

Anyway, this is not the question.

The fact is that for millenias, Jews have been defined as being born from a Jewish mother. That's all.

There were no discrimination, no racist or ideological project when this rule have been established. The reason simply was practical: Mater secura est. It simply is a cultural tradition, and you should not confuse it with a modern political agenda, because then it would be a complete anachronism.

Catholics and Sunni Muslims often are the first to misinterpret the way a non-prozelyte religion works: if you cannot convert to it, then it means there is something wrong within it. Misconceptions!

And later, Marxists took exactly the same stance, since they shared exactly the same Christian ethos: society is always right against the individual.

Earliest forms of anti-Semitism started this way, because people refused to figure why one would never convert or, more curiously, try to convert. The truth was that the Jewish people was extremely tolerant, and that it didn't understand why somebody would discard its identity for another one, or worse, force or influence somebody to do that. And the confusion grew even thicker when you know that for a Christian or a Muslim, the objective of religion was to control what people would think (=Ideology), while for a Jew, it simply was to define how they would have to behave in society. Judaism always emphasizes the right action, not the right belief. And in Judaism, you have no Hell, no Sin (at least the way Christians understand this word), no Redemption and no Paradise.

But Catholicism turned this remarkable quality into its opposite, and pretended that the intolerant ones were in fact the Jews. A very perverse trick, almost analogous to the "elected people" myth. For a Jew, being born a Jew is a burden, but you have no choice. While for a Catholic, if the Jew didn't want to convert, it was because he probably felt superior, or something like that.
This Jew probably had to hide something (a dark secret?), hence the beginning of paranoid conspiracy theories.

It all began that way, first as a simple misunderstanding, then later as a clash between radically dissimilar ethos. And with time, the mere existence of Jews became more and more unbearable, because it also questioned the Christian/Muslim/Collectivist ethos.

And hundred of years later, the consequence is you still have people over the Internet who nazify the Jew, and see their traditions as an offense to God/Collectivism/Ideology.
For them, Jews can only be the supreme racists, if not the inventors of racism itself. So they deserve to be treated the way they treat Goyim. The victims become the agressors, a classic tale of redemption!

What a cliché!

So Lark might wonder if I'm a psychic or something, but the fact is I've heard his tale at least a thousand times. Plus the fact he doesn't want to consider another point of view, that he seems intimately persuaded to be "morally superior". Remember that Bush jr or Bin Laden also were intimately persuaded to be morally superior to any other contestant.

He doesn't like nation-states? Well fine! But once again, tell that to a Tibetan or a Kurd. I'm sure it's awfully racist or ethically flawed to think that in practice, if ever a free Tibet or a free Kurdistan were allowed to exist, the fate of these people would be far better than what they endure now.

So once again, things are often more complex than they appear, and as they say: "hell is paved with good intentions".
 
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Haphazard

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The two other Abrhamic religions seem to believe that "This is the way you have to be if you want to be 'saved'" or somesuch. Judaism is inherently not like that.

What do you get in Christianity and Islam? Promise of resurrection, redemption, etc... all Jews get is lots of descendants and a piece of land that has to be fought over again and again and again.

So really. It's not that great to be Jewish. The thing is, Jews know that and therefore do not encourage it like Christians and Muslims do with their religions. We'll still like you, honest. The only time being Jewish or not becomes important is when wanting to become a Rabbi, wanting to move to Israel under birthright, wanting to marry Orthodox, and, well, wanting to go to prestigious schools like this one.
 

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The two other Abrhamic religions seem to believe that "This is the way you have to be if you want to be 'saved'" or somesuch. Judaism is inherently not like that.

What do you get in Christianity and Islam? Promise of resurrection, redemption, etc... all Jews get is lots of descendants and a piece of land that has to be fought over again and again and again.

So really. It's not that great to be Jewish. The thing is, Jews know that and therefore do not encourage it like Christians and Muslims do with their religions. We'll still like you, honest. The only time being Jewish or not becomes important is when wanting to become a Rabbi, wanting to move to Israel under birthright, wanting to marry Orthodox, and, well, wanting to go to prestigious schools like this one.

+1 :jew:
 

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The state of "Jewishness" is funny, because it is both a religion and an ethic group. Basically a religion formed around an ethic group.
And they seem particularly hard on those who convert to Christianity. That is seen as a betrayal, and overrrides the physical lineage. I have heard from missionaries that the state of Israel will accept atheists, and even for people to hold some eastern concepts but not converts to Christianity.
 

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The state of "Jewishness" is funny, because it is both a religion and an ethic group. Basically a religion formed around an ethic group.
And they seem particularly hard on those who convert to Christianity. That is seen as a betrayal, and overrrides the physical lineage. I have heard from missionaries that the state of Israel will accept atheists, and even for people to hold some eastern concepts but not converts to Christianity.

Yeah, I know that and I've always thought it interesting that it means both things, although I thought that this was also a dividing line.

I know people who hold loopy views about Aryan Christs and Christianity having some relationship to race but most Christians wouldnt lend that any kind of credience. I expected to find the same when I posted this thread, at least from Jewish people themselves, but instead I didnt.

I also know about the hostility of Israeli Jews towards Christians and particularly converts from Judahism to Christianity, its part of the reason that I've found US evangelical Christians fondness for Israel and even redesignation of themselves as Judeo-Christians as strange. It still happens though.

I've read hostile anti-Christian diatribes from Jewish authors in the UK press which I'm pretty sure would have been illegal were it a Christian writing with the same vitriol about Judahism or Islam or anything else for that matter.
 

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I guess that since the school had some requirements about the religion of the child, then it should be their its right to refuse his application. There are catholic primary schools in Italy, I think they would refuse applications from Islamic children. Not that I agree with this policy, but I guess it's part of what characterizes them as catholic schools.

Anyway, my Race is a Religion because Italians are Jhwh's gift to Humanity.
 

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Its part of the reason that I've found US evangelical Christians fondness for Israel

The Evangelical Christians in the US want all the Jews to move back to Israel because apparently you need that to start the Rapture.
 

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Also, Gen.12:3, which they interpret as treat the Jews special, and you will receive favor from God.
 

Lark

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I guess that since the school had some requirements about the religion of the child, then it should be their its right to refuse his application. There are catholic primary schools in Italy, I think they would refuse applications from Islamic children. Not that I agree with this policy, but I guess it's part of what characterizes them as catholic schools.

Anyway, my Race is a Religion because Italians are Jhwh's gift to Humanity.

I know about those kinds of schools because I attended one, they dont refuse entry to anyone on the basis of their parentage or ethnic background which appeared to be at stake here, the mother being a convert.

RC schools provide religious training as well as a regular curriculum, they've had children attend who where from pretty secular backgrounds, most of the kids at my school were avowedly athiestic or agnostic at the very, very best, none of them have gone on to be practicing RCs but they sat through masses and services and other traditional schooling until they left school.
 
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