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Is your Religion your Race?

Lark

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Have you noticed that 90% of the so-called "Bundists" have been turned to ashes by the Nazis?

So do you really think that practically, they were right, and that every Jew should have followed their ideological crusade?

It's wonderful to be an idealist (especially when you want to force others to be idealists too), but sometimes, you have to consider the real world instead.

The Bund was a tragic political failure. No wonder you like Jews this way: a good Jew is a dead Jew.

---

You know, I may not like the concept of nation-state, and find it morally flawed too, but practically, there are no better ways to guarantee the survival of an entire people. If you find another viable alternative, please, share it with us! And remember it's always easier to pretend the concept of nation-state is flawed when your life is not threatened, when for instance you're not Tibetan nor Kurdish. You may despise your own nation-state (Ireland), but believe me, nation-states are also useful -at least sometimes-.

I will always wonder why so many people are obsessed to specifically compel Jews to behave more ethically than any other nation on Earth.

This is weird, tell you what, you want to do my side of the conversation too? You seem to imagine you know what I'm thinking anyway, what type is the psychic type because its got to be you.

I dont tend to believe that ethno-nationalism is justified because internationalism wont make your enemies love you, you imagine that if the bund had been Zionists their fate would have been different? I remember that the Nazis didnt care what the Jews going to the gas chambers believed.
 

Mad Hatter

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I can understand that. I also understand how many people disguise anti-Semitism under Anti-Zionism. However, too often criticism of Israel is misinterpreted as Anti-Semitism.

Religion and ethnicity has always had close ties, and probably always will Fidelia. Community has always played an important role in religious life, and in turn the religion helps bind the community together. Even within a secular context you need a "civil religion" to help keep society together.

At first I wanted to disagree, but ethnicity is the watchword here (I don't know whether it's a more politically correct version of what was called "race" back then, but I'd say that it entails a lot more). That religion equals race has always seemed very odd to me, even more so the conclusions that were drawn from it (especially that whole racial purity issue).

I'm currently in a lecture on anti-semitism, and I'm very curious of what he has to say about present-day (i.e. post-WWII) anti-semitism.
 

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I think that a lot of the arguments about the state of Israel are bogus, I remember seeing a book are article which was entitled "Israel really exists" or something like that, too often the arguments over the state of Israel are abstract or ridiculous, whatever its origins or current policies, its there, its a success, it would be like someone taking Scotland or England to task because of the fate of the Picts.

Do Picts still exist?

If not, then, your comparison is absurd.

---

And furthermore, you seem not to have noticed that several times during the last millenia, Jews became a majority in Judea. They were slaughtered by Babylonians, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Romans, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Saladin, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Byzantines, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Seljuk Turks, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Crusaders, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Saladin, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Ottomans, they came back nonetheless. And so on, and so on...

But you have a continuous Jewish presence there, especially in Jerusalem.

You can't say that of the Picts.


On the other hand I think Zionism is different, at its heart is the idea that Jews are a people or a race apart which dont belong any place but Israel, I dont really so how its so popular, especially with Jewish people.

The question is not why it is so popular; the question rather is there were no alternative of survival, that the vast majority of Jewish settlers in Israel simply had no other choice -they were refugees-, since they were expelled from their home, and that nobody wanted to really protect them.

Be realistic, just for one time... :thinking:
 
S

Sniffles

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At first I wanted to disagree, but ethnicity is the watchword here (I don't know whether it's a more politically correct version of what was called "race" back then, but I'd say that it entails a lot more). That religion equals race has always seemed very odd to me, even more so the conclusions that were drawn from it (especially that whole racial purity issue).
Well I think you're already making some mistakes here. Even if one favor ethnic nationalism, it does not mean they embrace racial purity per se. To do that you first have to confuse "race" in the biological sense that term is originally meant and "nation" which is a more social-cultural concept.
 

Haphazard

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Why am I being ignored.

Why are people using this single article to label the whole of the Jewish people as racists.

What the hell.
 

Lark

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Do Picts still exist?

If not, then, your comparison is absurd.

---

And furthermore, you seem not to have noticed that several times during the last millenia, Jews became a majority in Judea. They were slaughtered by Babylonians, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Romans, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Saladin, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Byzantines, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Seljuk Turks, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Crusaders, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Saladin, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Ottomans, they came back nonetheless. And so on, and so on...

But you have a continuous Jewish presence there, especially in Jerusalem.

You can't say that of the Picts.




The question is not why it is so popular; the question rather is there were no alternative of survival, that the vast majority of Jewish settlers in Israel simply had no other choice -they were refugees-, since they were expelled from their home, and that nobody wanted to really protect them.

Be realistic, just for one time... :thinking:

Yeah, learn your history, terrorism drove the British out of British mandate Palestine, that was the creation of the state of Israel, not the waves of immigration which took place before that.

I used the example of the picts to illustrate the point that all states are created in violence, to contrast the origins of other modern states in ethnic struggles with that of state of Israel. Beginning to think that you're a contrarian and not worth talking with.
 

Mad Hatter

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Well I think you're already making some mistakes here. Even if one favor ethnic nationalism, it does not mean they embrace racial purity per se. To do that you first have to confuse "race" in the biological sense that term is originally meant and "nation" which is a more social-cultural concept.

I'm aware of that - but it is what anti-semitism often does or did (i.e. tying biological concepts to socio-cultural ones).
 
S

Sniffles

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I'm aware of that - but it is what anti-semitism often does or did (i.e. tying biological concepts to socio-cultural ones).

That's mostly true with Germany, which came about because of certain historical circumstances. In many other countries, Anti-Semitism was more cultural in nature and often tried to assmiliate Jews rather than physically exterminate them.
 

Lark

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What's that meant to mean?

In fact I'm at a loss to understand what haphazard means by being ignored.

I dont believe anyone is using a single article to label an entire people, I just posted that made me question why religion and race in this instance seemed to be the same thing, surely that was the perspective of the oppessors?

Anyway, this is becoming a waste of time, any time I try to discuss topics like this with Jewish people it instantly gets turned into a vast anti-semitic conspiracy. If you've got that view and its entrenched nothing's going to shift it, its the same as its polar opposite.

Don your tin foil hat and carry on.
 

Lark

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That's mostly true with Germany, which came about because of certain historical circumstances. In many other countries, Anti-Semitism was more cultural in nature and often tried to assmiliate Jews rather than physically exterminate them.

Have you seen the film The Believer?

I think its an over complex movie because they try to weave just about every Jewish identity issue into a single feature, ie self-hating jew, aryanism contrasted with zionism, tribalism, exceptionalism, nihilism, the role of the holocaust etc.

What I did find interesting was the idea of whether assimilation could be considered as racist as exermination or serving the same goals, the central character holds both views at one time or another for similar reasons.
 

Haphazard

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In fact I'm at a loss to understand what haphazard means by being ignored.

I dont believe anyone is using a single article to label an entire people, I just posted that made me question why religion and race in this instance seemed to be the same thing, surely that was the perspective of the oppessors?

Because in this case it is not. With a bit of careful reading, you will see that the Rabbi objected to the student as being "Jewish" NOT because of the mother's ethnicity but because of the manner of the mother's conversion. Whether this was right or wrong is beside the point -- the point is that this was an issue of religious purity and not ethnic purity :doh:
 

Mad Hatter

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That's mostly true with Germany, which came about because of certain historical circumstances. In many other countries, Anti-Semitism was more cultural in nature and often tried to assmiliate Jews rather than physically exterminate them.

True, and it's what I had in mind when I read the word anti-semitism (which is no surprise since the lecture I'm in is currently dealing with Germany in the 20s and 30s; unfortunately, other European countries weren't dealt with in great detail).
 

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Yeah, learn your history, terrorism drove the British out of British mandate Palestine, that was the creation of the state of Israel, not the waves of immigration which took place before that.

You're asking ME to learn "my history"?? Are you kidding? :shock:

Were you aware that anti-Semitism has a long and very rich history, long, long before 1948?

Question:
Why do you think Herzl created the Zionist movement, tell me?
Have you heard of the Dreyfus affair, for instance?
Why do you think a lot of Jews became disillusioned even with the most tolerant and socially progressive state in the world (back then)?

The question is very complex, and you seem so naive.

I used the example of the picts to illustrate the point that all states are created in violence, to contrast the origins of other modern states in ethnic struggles with that of state of Israel. Beginning to think that you're a contrarian and not worth talking with.

My dear little Haphazard, were you asking why we were feeling ignored?

Even when we try to state the obvious to an ignorant goy who labels us as racists, we are considered as "not worth talking with"! :jew:
 
S

Sniffles

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Have you seen the film The Believer?

No I haven't

I think its an over complex movie because they try to weave just about every Jewish identity issue into a single feature, ie self-hating jew, aryanism contrasted with zionism, tribalism, exceptionalism, nihilism, the role of the holocaust etc.

What I did find interesting was the idea of whether assimilation could be considered as racist as exermination or serving the same goals, the central character holds both views at one time or another for similar reasons.

Hmmmn interesting. Only recent film Ive seen that touched upon these topics is Protocols.
 

Lark

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Because in this case it is not. With a bit of careful reading, you will see that the Rabbi objected to the student as being "Jewish" NOT because of the mother's ethnicity but because of the manner of the mother's conversion. Whether this was right or wrong is beside the point -- the point is that this was an issue of religious purity and not ethnic purity :doh:

I'm not going to argue over technicalities, would the equality commission have ruled mistakenly, is that what you're saying?

What it appeared to be saying to me was that parentage was important, rather than the child in questions identity or practice, the parentage was important because the mother was originally a gentile convert not having an ethnic origin of Jewishness.

Perhaps that was a bit of slippage and the revisionists have been in to spin it as something of a more theological difference, this is also a later article, the original story broke on Radio 4 and obviously there is no link to that.

I know this story is being treated sensitively because the last thing the UK government wants is to give an edge to racist agitators which are suggesting there are alreay ethnically exclusive Jewish or Muslim or Hindu schools in the UK teaching ethnic seperatism.
 

Lark

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You're asking ME to learn "my history"?? Are you kidding? :shock:

Were you aware that anti-Semitism has a long and very rich history, long, long before 1948?

Question:
Why do you think Herzl created the Zionist movement, tell me?
Have you heard of the Dreyfus affair, for instance?
Why do you think a lot of Jews became disillusioned even with the most tolerant and socially progressive state in the world (back then)?

The question is very complex, and you seem so naive.



My dear little Haphazard, were you asking why we were feeling ignored?

Even when we try to state the obvious to an ignorant goy who labels us as racists, we are considered as "not worth talking with"! :jew:

An "ignorant goy"?

Alright. I know all I need to know about you.

Only willing to put up with insults as possible social ineptitude for so long.
 

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Anyway, this is becoming a waste of time, any time I try to discuss topics like this with Jewish people it instantly gets turned into a vast anti-semitic conspiracy. If you've got that view and its entrenched nothing's going to shift it, its the same as its polar opposite.

If the results are more or less the same, it may be because:

1/ The entire Jewish people is paranoid and racist, and you are the only one who is right against them.

2/ Because you consistently miss the point.
 
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