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  1. #51
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont believe anyone is using a single article to label an entire people, I just posted that made me question why religion and race in this instance seemed to be the same thing, surely that was the perspective of the oppessors?
    So that's all you want to know? Well then, let me help you out.

    Despite what US law holds - and maybe laws in other countries for all I know - there's no such thing as a Jewish race. Race denotes shared ancestry and shared genetics. And while you are thinking, "But they do share an ancestry and genetics!" most of us do, but some of us do not. Why, you ask? Because of *points at converts" those guys.

    You see, anyone can convert via Judaism and thus be recognized as Jewish/a Jew. However, as an example, no matter how much I like rap music, I cannot convert into the black race to become a legitimate rapper.

    See what I'm say'n? Yo.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
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  2. #52
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    I do not understand the logic and reason for the boycott of Israeli universities. But, I do know Tzipi Livni deserves to be shot like her father, luckily for her Britain does not execute war criminals and her bastard of a father able to brake out of prison.
    Do you think Churchill and Thatcher should have been shot too?

    ---

    Anyway, this is not the question.

    The fact is that for millenias, Jews have been defined as being born from a Jewish mother. That's all.

    There were no discrimination, no racist or ideological project when this rule have been established. The reason simply was practical: Mater secura est. It simply is a cultural tradition, and you should not confuse it with a modern political agenda, because then it would be a complete anachronism.

    Catholics and Sunni Muslims often are the first to misinterpret the way a non-prozelyte religion works: if you cannot convert to it, then it means there is something wrong within it. Misconceptions!

    And later, Marxists took exactly the same stance, since they shared exactly the same Christian ethos: society is always right against the individual.

    Earliest forms of anti-Semitism started this way, because people refused to figure why one would never convert or, more curiously, try to convert. The truth was that the Jewish people was extremely tolerant, and that it didn't understand why somebody would discard its identity for another one, or worse, force or influence somebody to do that. And the confusion grew even thicker when you know that for a Christian or a Muslim, the objective of religion was to control what people would think (=Ideology), while for a Jew, it simply was to define how they would have to behave in society. Judaism always emphasizes the right action, not the right belief. And in Judaism, you have no Hell, no Sin (at least the way Christians understand this word), no Redemption and no Paradise.

    But Catholicism turned this remarkable quality into its opposite, and pretended that the intolerant ones were in fact the Jews. A very perverse trick, almost analogous to the "elected people" myth. For a Jew, being born a Jew is a burden, but you have no choice. While for a Catholic, if the Jew didn't want to convert, it was because he probably felt superior, or something like that.
    This Jew probably had to hide something (a dark secret?), hence the beginning of paranoid conspiracy theories.

    It all began that way, first as a simple misunderstanding, then later as a clash between radically dissimilar ethos. And with time, the mere existence of Jews became more and more unbearable, because it also questioned the Christian/Muslim/Collectivist ethos.

    And hundred of years later, the consequence is you still have people over the Internet who nazify the Jew, and see their traditions as an offense to God/Collectivism/Ideology.
    For them, Jews can only be the supreme racists, if not the inventors of racism itself. So they deserve to be treated the way they treat Goyim. The victims become the agressors, a classic tale of redemption!

    What a clich!

    So Lark might wonder if I'm a psychic or something, but the fact is I've heard his tale at least a thousand times. Plus the fact he doesn't want to consider another point of view, that he seems intimately persuaded to be "morally superior". Remember that Bush jr or Bin Laden also were intimately persuaded to be morally superior to any other contestant.

    He doesn't like nation-states? Well fine! But once again, tell that to a Tibetan or a Kurd. I'm sure it's awfully racist or ethically flawed to think that in practice, if ever a free Tibet or a free Kurdistan were allowed to exist, the fate of these people would be far better than what they endure now.

    So once again, things are often more complex than they appear, and as they say: "hell is paved with good intentions".
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 12-23-2009 at 04:58 PM.
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  3. #53
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    The two other Abrhamic religions seem to believe that "This is the way you have to be if you want to be 'saved'" or somesuch. Judaism is inherently not like that.

    What do you get in Christianity and Islam? Promise of resurrection, redemption, etc... all Jews get is lots of descendants and a piece of land that has to be fought over again and again and again.

    So really. It's not that great to be Jewish. The thing is, Jews know that and therefore do not encourage it like Christians and Muslims do with their religions. We'll still like you, honest. The only time being Jewish or not becomes important is when wanting to become a Rabbi, wanting to move to Israel under birthright, wanting to marry Orthodox, and, well, wanting to go to prestigious schools like this one.
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  4. #54
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The two other Abrhamic religions seem to believe that "This is the way you have to be if you want to be 'saved'" or somesuch. Judaism is inherently not like that.

    What do you get in Christianity and Islam? Promise of resurrection, redemption, etc... all Jews get is lots of descendants and a piece of land that has to be fought over again and again and again.

    So really. It's not that great to be Jewish. The thing is, Jews know that and therefore do not encourage it like Christians and Muslims do with their religions. We'll still like you, honest. The only time being Jewish or not becomes important is when wanting to become a Rabbi, wanting to move to Israel under birthright, wanting to marry Orthodox, and, well, wanting to go to prestigious schools like this one.
    +1
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  5. #55
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    The state of "Jewishness" is funny, because it is both a religion and an ethic group. Basically a religion formed around an ethic group.
    And they seem particularly hard on those who convert to Christianity. That is seen as a betrayal, and overrrides the physical lineage. I have heard from missionaries that the state of Israel will accept atheists, and even for people to hold some eastern concepts but not converts to Christianity.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The state of "Jewishness" is funny, because it is both a religion and an ethic group. Basically a religion formed around an ethic group.
    And they seem particularly hard on those who convert to Christianity. That is seen as a betrayal, and overrrides the physical lineage. I have heard from missionaries that the state of Israel will accept atheists, and even for people to hold some eastern concepts but not converts to Christianity.
    Yeah, I know that and I've always thought it interesting that it means both things, although I thought that this was also a dividing line.

    I know people who hold loopy views about Aryan Christs and Christianity having some relationship to race but most Christians wouldnt lend that any kind of credience. I expected to find the same when I posted this thread, at least from Jewish people themselves, but instead I didnt.

    I also know about the hostility of Israeli Jews towards Christians and particularly converts from Judahism to Christianity, its part of the reason that I've found US evangelical Christians fondness for Israel and even redesignation of themselves as Judeo-Christians as strange. It still happens though.

    I've read hostile anti-Christian diatribes from Jewish authors in the UK press which I'm pretty sure would have been illegal were it a Christian writing with the same vitriol about Judahism or Islam or anything else for that matter.

  7. #57
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    I guess that since the school had some requirements about the religion of the child, then it should be their its right to refuse his application. There are catholic primary schools in Italy, I think they would refuse applications from Islamic children. Not that I agree with this policy, but I guess it's part of what characterizes them as catholic schools.

    Anyway, my Race is a Religion because Italians are Jhwh's gift to Humanity.
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  8. #58
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its part of the reason that I've found US evangelical Christians fondness for Israel
    The Evangelical Christians in the US want all the Jews to move back to Israel because apparently you need that to start the Rapture.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #59
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Also, Gen.12:3, which they interpret as treat the Jews special, and you will receive favor from God.
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  10. #60
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I guess that since the school had some requirements about the religion of the child, then it should be their its right to refuse his application. There are catholic primary schools in Italy, I think they would refuse applications from Islamic children. Not that I agree with this policy, but I guess it's part of what characterizes them as catholic schools.

    Anyway, my Race is a Religion because Italians are Jhwh's gift to Humanity.
    I know about those kinds of schools because I attended one, they dont refuse entry to anyone on the basis of their parentage or ethnic background which appeared to be at stake here, the mother being a convert.

    RC schools provide religious training as well as a regular curriculum, they've had children attend who where from pretty secular backgrounds, most of the kids at my school were avowedly athiestic or agnostic at the very, very best, none of them have gone on to be practicing RCs but they sat through masses and services and other traditional schooling until they left school.

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