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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Have you noticed that 90% of the so-called "Bundists" have been turned to ashes by the Nazis?

    So do you really think that practically, they were right, and that every Jew should have followed their ideological crusade?

    It's wonderful to be an idealist (especially when you want to force others to be idealists too), but sometimes, you have to consider the real world instead.

    The Bund was a tragic political failure. No wonder you like Jews this way: a good Jew is a dead Jew.

    ---

    You know, I may not like the concept of nation-state, and find it morally flawed too, but practically, there are no better ways to guarantee the survival of an entire people. If you find another viable alternative, please, share it with us! And remember it's always easier to pretend the concept of nation-state is flawed when your life is not threatened, when for instance you're not Tibetan nor Kurdish. You may despise your own nation-state (Ireland), but believe me, nation-states are also useful -at least sometimes-.

    I will always wonder why so many people are obsessed to specifically compel Jews to behave more ethically than any other nation on Earth.
    This is weird, tell you what, you want to do my side of the conversation too? You seem to imagine you know what I'm thinking anyway, what type is the psychic type because its got to be you.

    I dont tend to believe that ethno-nationalism is justified because internationalism wont make your enemies love you, you imagine that if the bund had been Zionists their fate would have been different? I remember that the Nazis didnt care what the Jews going to the gas chambers believed.

  2. #22
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I remember that the Nazis didnt care what the Jews going to the gas chambers believed.
    One rare exception I know of was towards some Jews who served Germany in WWI.

  3. #23
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I can understand that. I also understand how many people disguise anti-Semitism under Anti-Zionism. However, too often criticism of Israel is misinterpreted as Anti-Semitism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Religion and ethnicity has always had close ties, and probably always will Fidelia. Community has always played an important role in religious life, and in turn the religion helps bind the community together. Even within a secular context you need a "civil religion" to help keep society together.
    At first I wanted to disagree, but ethnicity is the watchword here (I don't know whether it's a more politically correct version of what was called "race" back then, but I'd say that it entails a lot more). That religion equals race has always seemed very odd to me, even more so the conclusions that were drawn from it (especially that whole racial purity issue).

    I'm currently in a lecture on anti-semitism, and I'm very curious of what he has to say about present-day (i.e. post-WWII) anti-semitism.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

    -τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ-

  4. #24
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think that a lot of the arguments about the state of Israel are bogus, I remember seeing a book are article which was entitled "Israel really exists" or something like that, too often the arguments over the state of Israel are abstract or ridiculous, whatever its origins or current policies, its there, its a success, it would be like someone taking Scotland or England to task because of the fate of the Picts.
    Do Picts still exist?

    If not, then, your comparison is absurd.

    ---

    And furthermore, you seem not to have noticed that several times during the last millenia, Jews became a majority in Judea. They were slaughtered by Babylonians, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Romans, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Saladin, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Byzantines, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Seljuk Turks, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Crusaders, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Saladin, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Ottomans, they came back nonetheless. And so on, and so on...

    But you have a continuous Jewish presence there, especially in Jerusalem.

    You can't say that of the Picts.


    On the other hand I think Zionism is different, at its heart is the idea that Jews are a people or a race apart which dont belong any place but Israel, I dont really so how its so popular, especially with Jewish people.
    The question is not why it is so popular; the question rather is there were no alternative of survival, that the vast majority of Jewish settlers in Israel simply had no other choice -they were refugees-, since they were expelled from their home, and that nobody wanted to really protect them.

    Be realistic, just for one time...
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #25
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    At first I wanted to disagree, but ethnicity is the watchword here (I don't know whether it's a more politically correct version of what was called "race" back then, but I'd say that it entails a lot more). That religion equals race has always seemed very odd to me, even more so the conclusions that were drawn from it (especially that whole racial purity issue).
    Well I think you're already making some mistakes here. Even if one favor ethnic nationalism, it does not mean they embrace racial purity per se. To do that you first have to confuse "race" in the biological sense that term is originally meant and "nation" which is a more social-cultural concept.

  6. #26
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Why am I being ignored.

    Why are people using this single article to label the whole of the Jewish people as racists.

    What the hell.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #27
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Why am I being ignored.

    Why are people using this single article to label the whole of the Jewish people as racists.

    What the hell.
    Guess!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Do Picts still exist?

    If not, then, your comparison is absurd.

    ---

    And furthermore, you seem not to have noticed that several times during the last millenia, Jews became a majority in Judea. They were slaughtered by Babylonians, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Romans, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Saladin, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Byzantines, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Seljuk Turks, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Crusaders, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Saladin, they came back nonetheless. They were slaughtered by Ottomans, they came back nonetheless. And so on, and so on...

    But you have a continuous Jewish presence there, especially in Jerusalem.

    You can't say that of the Picts.




    The question is not why it is so popular; the question rather is there were no alternative of survival, that the vast majority of Jewish settlers in Israel simply had no other choice -they were refugees-, since they were expelled from their home, and that nobody wanted to really protect them.

    Be realistic, just for one time...
    Yeah, learn your history, terrorism drove the British out of British mandate Palestine, that was the creation of the state of Israel, not the waves of immigration which took place before that.

    I used the example of the picts to illustrate the point that all states are created in violence, to contrast the origins of other modern states in ethnic struggles with that of state of Israel. Beginning to think that you're a contrarian and not worth talking with.

  9. #29
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well I think you're already making some mistakes here. Even if one favor ethnic nationalism, it does not mean they embrace racial purity per se. To do that you first have to confuse "race" in the biological sense that term is originally meant and "nation" which is a more social-cultural concept.
    I'm aware of that - but it is what anti-semitism often does or did (i.e. tying biological concepts to socio-cultural ones).
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

    -τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ-

  10. #30
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    I'm aware of that - but it is what anti-semitism often does or did (i.e. tying biological concepts to socio-cultural ones).
    That's mostly true with Germany, which came about because of certain historical circumstances. In many other countries, Anti-Semitism was more cultural in nature and often tried to assmiliate Jews rather than physically exterminate them.

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